From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9571: 24.0.50; user option to turn off bidi, please Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:21:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87obybg01n.fsf@gmail.com> <87hb43fsq0.fsf@gmail.com> <83zkhvr07u.fsf@gnu.org> <631B4E70034844D78E123FF1527968C2@us.oracle.com> <83mxdvqhee.fsf@gnu.org> <42AFDF737DB84A93858CA84ABA91A84D@us.oracle.com> <83fwjnqbxs.fsf@gnu.org> <1EB39F8E0391465CB3F1803054CAF35D@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1316820224 2230 80.91.229.12 (23 Sep 2011 23:23:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:23:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9571@debbugs.gnu.org, stepnem@gmail.com To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 24 01:23:39 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5n-0004Rk-Hj for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:23:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54088 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5m-0001Wb-JS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41193) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5j-0001WG-FH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5h-0004ec-SI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:35 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:51012) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5h-0004eX-QP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:33 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F6A-0003SY-Ax for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:24:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:24:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9571 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 9571-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9571.131682019013211 (code B ref 9571); Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:24:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9571) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2011 23:23:10 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5J-0003R1-JM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:10 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-gy0-f172.google.com ([209.85.160.172]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7F5H-0003Qo-62 for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:23:07 -0400 Original-Received: by gyd12 with SMTP id 12so2982070gyd.3 for <9571@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:22:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cl9DNPfNOicbqcEkNfRpQJLH+Ncl91ei0+nZ+892/hs=; b=GNOY5A0/OblV1Yz9HUdZbiZcPIs2bVmadXbL94dBthMGP5tqp2xAVkViO0b6QNJHEO pjevckc2V00ry7WsXMCoBZiswQASG8zdgeiVsLvDKGEY41Z1941s6ai4K2DtIlhMGDCj 1RUDmwKbinBADOjY5Ej0kUuqWltJjOYnJTqUU= Original-Received: by 10.68.19.100 with SMTP id d4mr12789412pbe.34.1316820157566; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.142.223.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 16:21:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1EB39F8E0391465CB3F1803054CAF35D@us.oracle.com> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 19:24:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:51749 Archived-At: On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 23:23, Drew Adams wrote: > Anyone's guess, unless someone checks and specifies what it does. > And why is it that that won't happen? You remind me of a discussion in the Perl 6 mailing list, a few years ago: "As one of the 3 or 4 people in the world that understands the perl5 regexp engine, we would welcome your input." "'Understands' is a rather strong word..." -- Mark Kvale and Hugo van der Sanden And that is the case here: the number of people who understands both the Emacs display engine and the issues related to bidi can be counted with a couple bits, and I'm being generous. So if Eli says that he's not going to devote time to some issue related to it, it's not unrealistic to expect that it won't happen (soonish). Your insistence in keeping the issue as a wishlist is just the hope that someone will someday want to change the display engine to suit your preferences. Even if the number of knowledgeable people suddenly were to increase, that wouldn't automatically mean that they would be willing to invest in adding the code and the toggle to keep the display engine backward-compatible. > Limbo is apparently no more Not exactly, no. In fact, the official position of the Catholic Church has not changed, news reports notwithstanding. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Modern_era > Not at all. =C2=A0Emacs 24 has not yet been released. > We still have a chance to get it right. Perhaps if you can convince Eli, Stefan and Chong that supporting both the bidi-aware and the not-bidi-aware code is the "right" thing to do. If you can do that, please also convince them to simultaneously support the Unicode and pre-Unicode font backends; I miss the speed of my line-by-line scrolling in times past (though it is now quite usable, thanks to tireless efforts by Eli and Chong and Jason, IIRC). > So far, it seems (but I can't speak for him, obviously) that Richard is n= ot > convinced either. =C2=A0He has repeated the same thing as I: why shouldn'= t this be a > user option? Because the option it would currently offer is bogus. > Emacs has been about partial control, better-than-nothing, and > do-the-best-we-can, since its inception. =C2=A0Above all, it has been abo= ut giving > users as much control as possible. It has also been about using resources (=3D developers) in the most efficient way possible. > It's about giving users the knowledge and access, even if the results of = using > nil are not 100% predictable or 100% good. Are there really that many users that will want to disable bidi-display-reordering, knowing that the result will likely be buggier than the default? And if they do exist, do they really need a defcustom? > I would prefer that we offer a user option. =C2=A0Not for me, but for oth= ers, who > might not be so clear about Lisp, buffer-local variables, and `setq-defau= lt'. A defcustom is an statement that something is a switch, and both modes are reasonable. That is not the case here. > When I say, great, > thank you, please tell that to the users also, you freak out and start sc= reaming > too "highly technical" and "deeply internal" for users. How did you determine the freaking out and the screaming? I'm quite interes= ted. > No one is asking that you document the implementation. =C2=A0Think in ter= ms of what > might help a user who does happen to set the variable to nil. =C2=A0That'= s the kind > of info that it could be helpful to add to the manual. =C2=A0Nothing more= . Your defcustom request can be trivially satisfied, and not a word is needed in the manual: (defcustom bidi-display-reordering t "Not a user option. Do NOT set it to nil. Horrible things will happen. Thanks." :type 'boolean :version "24.1" =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma