From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ken Manheimer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: In support of Jonas Bernoulli's Magit Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 12:52:36 -0400 Message-ID: References: <8737aac0rb.fsf@wanadoo.es> <7s37aapc4g.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c1256e2cc657a0553a8f230" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1499360042 15217 195.159.176.226 (6 Jul 2017 16:54:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2017 16:54:02 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= , Glenn Morris , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 06 18:53:54 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dTA2H-0003EF-Oa for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 18:53:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52452 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTA2L-0007Vk-Mz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 12:53:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:39985) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTA1Y-0007UA-6H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 12:53:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTA1W-000801-Rp for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 12:53:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230]:33655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTA1S-0007vF-W3; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 12:52:59 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x230.google.com with SMTP id r30so7348143qtc.0; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R6W2o+JbOaacVoulHYvFujVm8h3SaAuiwHjaqBOCZrE=; b=MLJTFsO7xwenl1Xs6W3YL+9ihTmExabCR3Us+o1Lbrdmf7fQqogDlp2Eo03bPJkopa K8pHgJ9JD208mq4AO/jtpy8UZIQl/HeNH/WrYq8wAQti+3auxRaD9hL47Pa5tGoCrq0k I72xVPiPPw71eBH8cbPjjhY87i1pEh7iqdgBwnyMi2OgO9Vuq9skrdMm1bRjWOQ+MFMA +aTIhBxqzHWv0Nhw8xSaKA3ZLcykvv0gyurJgyNBDzcaiglf9Ct2W7XnYlswkt5z6/C8 j6X9AqZ4/0Af74BH+sW8A+jijIqHNDVdpeP/Wml3eaKUzhBNC5IhNerVN3NLkr/YePH2 K52Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R6W2o+JbOaacVoulHYvFujVm8h3SaAuiwHjaqBOCZrE=; b=UPYBeqrjxpsEJ5GMetARM8Zc9vywjLe7kKVsInBhoiv5ve3dGiUr+k3I5azCNLcdP4 RG3k1wiEuBA645ctuRpj1MpQaUg45FmJ8RIPnquw7FOGu7LUZ493b9E/VWffosy4VzJ0 X6V9RCuR3UR7/viGWG1sS/nDMmMPDB6wUDpv7vi9FLALH4Zpg11WZryw0cop8KT/L8n5 6yKTYewg/MdxYWOKKnHeR7jvyBxPZIynZvMshz8ue6GSDR0sVu68Ig5kxKwlsLwDY5nI CO8KIwlluhN/CchVLNr23ckpj49kFC4Zw2IAgDqy4BEcpltVDb7alu2hJ0XmCZsiwBom ZVxA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112h8WAFXcgVJqjn1o4PAL4K31QhpEff+VAlT4WQ1Gv+ozo04IPT mcVK9y1DpEx2C3oTg04QGtZ7ajkT816ravA= X-Received: by 10.237.44.225 with SMTP id g88mr11257541qtd.150.1499359976644; Thu, 06 Jul 2017 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.12.137.147 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jul 2017 09:52:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216235 Archived-At: --94eb2c1256e2cc657a0553a8f230 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > We have a problem in Emacs: it doesn't contain a good interface to > > > git. > > > I get on just fine with Emacs VC and git. It enables me to do just what > > I did with other VCS in Emacs, and I appreciate the uniformity of > > interface. Obviously, many people prefer a more featureful interface to > > git's many bells and whistles, and that's fine. But IMO your statement > > is an exaggeration. > > I'm not stating a personal opinion about VC or Magit. (I don't have > one.) I'm citing what other people generally say on this list. > > When people ask here what they should do to use git with Emacs, the > usual answer posted is "use Magit". Thus the problem: that the usual > way people recommend to use Emacs with Git is via a package we have > been unable to include in Emacs. > In following this conversation, I'm getting the distinct feeling that Magit constitutes an interesting and important case, which might warrant improving the copyright assignment mechanisms. On one hand, the magnitude of the Magit project, together with the state of the GNU copyright assignment mechanisms, present a formidable obstacle to satisfying the copyright assignment requirement. On the other hand, as many voices are suggesting, the magnitude of the benefits Magit offers for developers to do their work simply cannot be disregarded or bypassed. Kaushal Modi's account of ways Magit makes some git stuff more approachable than git, itself, or other alternatives. My own experience is similar. This is no small thing, because in some ways git provides a similar, unbeatable advantage for source code management, compared to alternatives. So for some developers (including me), Magit is not just a good option for doing my job, it is irreplaceable. One conclusion I'm trying to suggest, from all this, is that Magit warrants extra effort to solve the copyright assignment problem. Phillip Lords account of his effort to bring Dash into conformance suggests what seem like crucial prospective improvements to the copyright assignment machinery. However, they risk not getting enough attention because they involve improving legally sensitive bureaucratic processes, which requires a lot of persistence. I hope that effort is invested - Magit really is that valuable. Ken -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) > Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. > > > --94eb2c1256e2cc657a0553a8f230 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu= .org> wrote:
[[[ To any NSA and= FBI agents reading my email: please consider=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
=C2=A0 > > We have a problem in Emacs: = it doesn't contain a good interface to
=C2=A0 > > git.

=C2=A0 > I get on just fine with Emacs VC and git. It enables me to do j= ust what
=C2=A0 > I did with other VCS in Emacs, and I appreciate the uniformity = of
=C2=A0 > interface. Obviously, many people prefer a more featureful inte= rface to
=C2=A0 > git's many bells and whistles, and that's fine. But IMO= your statement
=C2=A0 > is an exaggeration.

I'm not stating a personal opinion about VC or Magit.=C2=A0 (I d= on't have
one.)=C2=A0 I'm citing what other people generally say on this list.
When people ask here what they should do to use git with Emacs, the
usual answer posted is "use Magit".=C2=A0 Thus the problem: that = the usual
way people recommend to use Emacs with Git is via a package we have
been unable to include in Emacs.

In fol= lowing this conversation, I'm getting the distinct feeling that Magit c= onstitutes an interesting and important case, which might warrant improving= the copyright assignment mechanisms.

On one hand,= the magnitude of the Magit project, together with the state of the GNU cop= yright assignment mechanisms, present a formidable obstacle to satisfying t= he copyright assignment requirement.

On the other = hand, as many voices are suggesting, the magnitude of the benefits Magit of= fers for developers to do their work simply cannot be disregarded or bypass= ed. Kaushal Modi's account of ways Magit makes some git stuff more appr= oachable than git, itself, or other alternatives. My own experience is simi= lar. This is no small thing, because in some ways git provides a similar, u= nbeatable advantage for source code management, compared to alternatives. S= o for some developers (including me), Magit is not just a good option for d= oing my job, it is irreplaceable.

One conclusion I= 'm trying to suggest, from all this, is that Magit warrants extra effor= t to solve the copyright assignment problem. Phillip Lords account of his e= ffort to bring Dash into conformance suggests what seem like crucial prospe= ctive improvements to the copyright assignment machinery. However, they ris= k not getting enough attention because they involve improving legally sensi= tive bureaucratic processes, which requires a lot of persistence. I hope th= at effort is invested - Magit really is that valuable.

=
Ken

--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.



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