Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[JMorte]

On reddit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1mt8a5/
nearly_everyone_who_is_new_to_emacs_hates_it/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 22.09.2013 08:18, schrieb JMorte:
> On reddit:
>
> http://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1mt8a5/
> nearly_everyone_who_is_new_to_emacs_hates_it/
>
>
>

Thanks.

Below some extracts from this source considered helpful:

I found my way to Emacs after having spent some time with Sublime Text 2. It took me a good bit of perseverance and several sallies at Emacs before I was finally able to 
find my footing. I should note that this difficulty was in spite of my already having a basic familiarity with Scheme (enough to make sense of simple init file hackery) and 
already being someone who spends countless hours seeking out and implementing tiny customizations (e.g., Stylish, Pentadactyle, Quicksilver, KeyRemap4MakBook––caps lock to 
ctrl! right shift to forward delete! space+j,k,l,i to arrows!––and a few other utilities of that sort). Of course, my fiddling is small-time dabbling compared to proper 
optimizers, but the fact that an interested, reasonably capable person such as myself was put off of Emacs 4 or 5 times before finally finding my groove should count as 
evidence for your premise.

[ ... ]

The most formidable barrier I encountered when trying to pick up Emacs was simply the keyboard navigation. I have been cultivating a repertoire of key-chording for fifteen 
years or so, and virtually none of my habituated cords translate into the default Emacs bindings. When I first opened up the editor and tried to start using it a bit, I 
felt hobbled and constrained. I am 100% sold on the theoretical and practical virtues of Emacs, but I think it's a serious flaw that the software doesn't lend itself to 
effective use as a basic text editor straight out of the box. Really, why should I have to read a tutorial that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to 
figure out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll the window?! Since Emacs' essential strength lies in its extensibility, I think its built-in 
intro should instead start by offering up a menu of common key binding schemas.

RE: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Drew Adams]

Nothing new there.

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-07/msg00469.html

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:

> Am 22.09.2013 08:18, schrieb JMorte:
>> On reddit:
>>
>> http://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/1mt8a5/
>> nearly_everyone_who_is_new_to_emacs_hates_it/
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Below some extracts from this source considered helpful:
>
> I found my way to Emacs after having spent some time with Sublime Text
> 2. It took me a good bit of perseverance and several sallies at Emacs
> before I was finally able to find my footing. I should note that this
> difficulty was in spite of my already having a basic familiarity with
> Scheme (enough to make sense of simple init file hackery) and already
> being someone who spends countless hours seeking out and implementing
> tiny customizations (e.g., Stylish, Pentadactyle, Quicksilver,
> KeyRemap4MakBook––caps lock to ctrl! right shift to forward delete!
> space+j,k,l,i to arrows!––and a few other utilities of that sort). Of
> course, my fiddling is small-time dabbling compared to proper
> optimizers, but the fact that an interested, reasonably capable person
> such as myself was put off of Emacs 4 or 5 times before finally
> finding my groove should count as evidence for your premise.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> The most formidable barrier I encountered when trying to pick up Emacs
> was simply the keyboard navigation. I have been cultivating a
> repertoire of key-chording for fifteen years or so, and virtually none
> of my habituated cords translate into the default Emacs bindings. When
> I first opened up the editor and tried to start using it a bit, I felt
> hobbled and constrained. I am 100% sold on the theoretical and
> practical virtues of Emacs, but I think it's a serious flaw that the
> software doesn't lend itself to effective use as a basic text editor
> straight out of the box. Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
> that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
> out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
> the window?! Since Emacs' essential strength lies in its
> extensibility, I think its built-in intro should instead start by
> offering up a menu of common key binding schemas.

That's funny.   I've switched to emacs after having spent a lot of time
with other editors of all kinds, and notably before emacs a long period
with vi, and I had no such problem in starting wiht emacs.

I must be a genius,  or is it really that the level has dropped as much
as it is told to have dropped?

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
() Sun, 22 Sep 2013 18:04:38 +0200

   I must be a genius, or is it really that the level has
   dropped as much as it is told to have dropped?

I think people express themselves less subtly these days.

 i                   =>  everyone
 feel uncomfortable  =>  hates
 w/ new keybindings  =>  emacs

There is a larger pressure to express stridently, too.

That's OK -- in a few years, newbies will have forgotten
what a "keyboard" is altogether as Emacs 42 tracks eyebrow
twitches and nose flairs.  Should make for a more varied
set of complaints, one hopes... :-D

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen
   GPG key: 4C807502
   (if you're human and you know it)
      read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical)
                               (not (via 'mailing-list)))
                     => nil

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Dmitry Gutov]

"Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:
> That's funny.   I've switched to emacs after having spent a lot of time
> with other editors of all kinds, and notably before emacs a long period
> with vi, and I had no such problem in starting wiht emacs.
>
> I must be a genius,  or is it really that the level has dropped as much
> as it is told to have dropped?

By "level", do you mean the level of intelligence or something?

Is being able to adapt to obscure keybindings really how you would
measure it?

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com> writes:
>> That's funny.   I've switched to emacs after having spent a lot of time
>> with other editors of all kinds, and notably before emacs a long period
>> with vi, and I had no such problem in starting wiht emacs.
>>
>> I must be a genius,  or is it really that the level has dropped as much
>> as it is told to have dropped?
>
> By "level", do you mean the level of intelligence or something?
>
> Is being able to adapt to obscure keybindings really how you would
> measure it?

Yes, intelligence involves adaptation to changing conditions and
learning of new tricks.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Dmitry Gutov]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes:
> I think people express themselves less subtly these days.
>
>  i                   =>  everyone
>  feel uncomfortable  =>  hates
>  w/ new keybindings  =>  emacs

That's not accurate: the Reddit thread's author, instant_sunshine, is
not new to r/emacs or Emacs.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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I thought intelligence was more about finding solutions than inventing
problems.

I am fairly confident that a good solution here is CUA (on by default) and
Viper (not on by default...) - ;-)


On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes:
> > I think people express themselves less subtly these days.
> >
> >  i                   =>  everyone
> >  feel uncomfortable  =>  hates
> >  w/ new keybindings  =>  emacs
>
> That's not accurate: the Reddit thread's author, instant_sunshine, is
> not new to r/emacs or Emacs.
>
>

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2013 20:50:00 +0300
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Is being able to adapt to obscure keybindings really how you would
> measure it?

What obscure keybindings?  The cited text talked about cursor motion
and scrolling commands; Emacs supports the usual arrow keys and
PageUp/PageDown for that since about forever.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> wrote:

> in a few years, [...] as Emacs 42 [...]

So, that's what an optimist looks like...

   J

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Dmitry Gutov]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> What obscure keybindings?

These ones:

> Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
> that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
> out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
> the window?!

But really, I was just making a point that being able to adapt to any
keybindings doesn't tell much about a person's intelligence.

In all likelihood, a more experienced person who has many keychords
ingrained in their workflow would find it harder to adapt to new ones
than, say, a first-year CS student who's just picking up their first
serious editor.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jay Belanger]

>> Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
>> that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
>> out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
>> the window?!

The arrow keys?

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)


On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 1:59 AM, Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> >> Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
> >> that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
> >> out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
> >> the window?!
>
> The arrow keys?
>
>

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jay Belanger]

> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on
> the new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)

If the question is
>>> Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
>>> that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
>>> out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
>>> the window?!
(leaving aside the "strange and awkward" comment) the answer is "you
don't have to".

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Dmitry Gutov writes:

 > In all likelihood, a more experienced person who has many keychords
 > ingrained in their workflow would find it harder to adapt to new ones
 > than, say, a first-year CS student who's just picking up their first
 > serious editor.

This is certainly true[1], but most "experienced persons" are forced
to use CUA bindings elsewhere.  It's not the basic "if you've got a
shift key and enough time you can mark anything" keystrokes that are
the problem.  It's that if you restrict yourself to what cua-mode
provides (last I looked) Emacs is hardly more powerful than Notepad
*as an interactive editor*.  Would it really be worth using Emacs if
you were limited to that?!

What makes Emacs special are things like defun movement and marking,
and they're not very discoverable *from CUA*.  Users who adhere to
RMS's (?) original keystrokes have a "theory" of the keymap.  Mostly
initial-mnemonic letters[2] combine with modifiers.  The modifiers
typically have systematic connections to syntactic objects in the
buffer: characters, words, symbols, sexps; lines, sentences, defuns,
paragraphs.[3]  People who start from CUA are going to have to "start
over" with a new theory of the keymap to learn to use those powerful
commands.

While I don't understand the disgust that some people express for the
standard Emacs keymap, I do think there's something to the "hard to
learn" complaints.  To provide an easier path to journeyman level of
Emacs usage (by which I mean using movement by syntactic objects other
than characters, words, and visual lines[4]), there needs to be a
"theory of the keymap" for CUA as powerful as the theory provided by
the traditional Emacs bindings which extends CUA to cover the editing
features provided by Emacs.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Modulo the "serious" part.  Microsoft Word *is* a serious editor,
I just strongly disagree with it about what should be taken seriously
in the editing task in general, not just for programs.  And sad but
true, yes, I've seen students in a department called "Systems and
Information Engineering" use Word to write programs.

[2]  Eg, "f" for forward motion.

[3]  Of course this isn't 100% consistent -- with C-w and M-w the
modifier changes the operation, not the object -- but it was enough
for me.

[4]  This is a nasty pitfall.  By now most computer users are used to
the paradigm of automatically wrapping text to fit the screen, and
having paragraphs demarcated by newline characters.  Then "lines" are
"what you see on screen", rather than the regions between newline
characters in the buffer.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)

Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.

That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 01:21:22 +0300
> Cc: pjb@informatimago.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > What obscure keybindings?
> 
> These ones:
> 
> > Really, why should I have to read a tutorial
> > that forces me to use strange and awkward key-bindings just to figure
> > out how to move the cursor around the screen effectively and scroll
> > the window?!

Don't believe people who say they don't want to read the tutorial in
the first place.  Here's what the tutorial _really_ says about this
(and has been saying for years):


  You can also use the PageUp and PageDn keys to move by screenfuls, if
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  your terminal has them, but you can edit more efficiently if you use
  C-v and M-v.

  * BASIC CURSOR CONTROL
  ----------------------

  Moving from screenful to screenful is useful, but how do you
  move to a specific place within the text on the screen?

  There are several ways you can do this.  You can use the arrow keys,
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  but it's more efficient to keep your hands in the standard position
  and use the commands C-p, C-b, C-f, and C-n.

This all is right at the beginning of the tutorial.

But my basic point is that people who don't read tutorials should be
right at home in Emacs wrt basic cursor motion commands, because they
just work.

> In all likelihood, a more experienced person who has many keychords
> ingrained in their workflow would find it harder to adapt to new ones
> than, say, a first-year CS student who's just picking up their first
> serious editor.

Clearly, cursor motion is not part of this issue.  The only group of
bindings for which I'm willing to accept such claims are the CUA
copy/paste bindings and perhaps Undo/Redo, C-o for "Open" and C-s for
"Save".  Because everything else is anyway specific to the
application.  Try reading the full list of the key bindings in MS
Word, for example.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:18:44 +0200
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, 
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Emacs-Devel devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
> new user.

When did you last read the tutorial?  I posted a few excerpts from it
just now, which show that the tutorial does the exact opposite of what
you say.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
> 
> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
> > The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
> > new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)
> 
> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.
> 
> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.

When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago?

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200
>> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
>>
>> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
>>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
>>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)
>>
>> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.
>>
>> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
>> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.
>
> When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago?
>


At the very first screen C-v is presented.
Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this.
While later, certainly, it's preferable.

Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
That must have been changed very recently ;)

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:30:25 +0200
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
> >> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200
> >> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
> >>
> >> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
> >>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
> >>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)
> >>
> >> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.
> >>
> >> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
> >> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.
> >
> > When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago?
> >
> 
> 
> At the very first screen C-v is presented.
> Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this.
> While later, certainly, it's preferable.
> 
> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
> That must have been changed very recently ;)

Do you always read only the first 2 pages?

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 09:30:25 +0200
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> At the very first screen C-v is presented.
> Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this.
> While later, certainly, it's preferable.

That's exactly what the tutorial does.  PageUp and PageDown are
mentioned a few lines below.  You just need to read what it says, not
only the parts that help you make your point.

> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n

It tells about arrow keys before it tells about C-n and C-p.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 23.09.2013 10:31, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
[ ... ]
>
>> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
>
> It tells about arrow keys before it tells about C-n and C-p.
>
>
>

For which reason it talks about arrow keys in such preeminent position?
Are you afraid Emacs users might not detect them?

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:26:26 +0200
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> Am 23.09.2013 10:31, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
> [ ... ]
> >
> >> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
> >
> > It tells about arrow keys before it tells about C-n and C-p.
> 
> For which reason it talks about arrow keys in such preeminent position?

To satisfy complaints like yours.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 23.09.2013 11:30, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 11:26:26 +0200
>> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
>> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>>
>> Am 23.09.2013 10:31, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> [ ... ]
>>>
>>>> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
>>>
>>> It tells about arrow keys before it tells about C-n and C-p.
>>
>> For which reason it talks about arrow keys in such preeminent position?
>
> To satisfy complaints like yours.
>

Glad to know you can do better.
Have a nice day!

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 02:18:44 +0200
> > Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, Pascal Bourguignon <
> pjb@informatimago.com>,
> >       Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Emacs-Devel devel <
> emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
> > new user.
>
> When did you last read the tutorial?  I posted a few excerpts from it
> just now, which show that the tutorial does the exact opposite of what
> you say.
>

It was some time ago ;-) - When I tried to enhance how the tutorial handles
different choices like cua-mode, viper etc... ;-)

So that part is better now. Good.

But you still can't use arrow keys etc for selecting text from default
Emacs, or? That is a very important use of the arrow keys.

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:29:46 +0200
> Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <dgutov@yandex.ru>, 
> 	Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> But you still can't use arrow keys etc for selecting text from default
> Emacs, or? That is a very important use of the arrow keys.

If you mean hold Shift and move by arrow keys, then this selects text
for quite some time now.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 12:29:46 +0200
> > Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <
> dgutov@yandex.ru>,
> >       Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <
> emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > But you still can't use arrow keys etc for selecting text from default
> > Emacs, or? That is a very important use of the arrow keys.
>
> If you mean hold Shift and move by arrow keys, then this selects text
> for quite some time now.
>

Oh, is that default now? Good. (I can't switch because I am using my old
patches which I did not have time to get into Emacs.)

And how about Ctl-arrow key? Does that move a "word"? If combined with
Shift does it select?

And how about Ctrl-PgUp/PgDn?

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 13:40:19 +0200
> Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <dgutov@yandex.ru>, 
> 	Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> And how about Ctl-arrow key? Does that move a "word"? If combined with
> Shift does it select?

Yes and yes.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 13:40:19 +0200
> > Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <
> dgutov@yandex.ru>,
> >       Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <
> emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > And how about Ctl-arrow key? Does that move a "word"? If combined with
> > Shift does it select?
>
> Yes and yes.
>

Oh, that is really good news! :-)
But you did not mention anything about PgUp/PgDn. Though those are of
course trivial to fix too.

Some important things are of course still missing for new users: C-c and
C-x (only text is selected), C-v and C-z (always). Making cua-mode default
would make those things much more stable. And better for new users.

And then there is the trouble with Emac's META vs Window's Alt. (I do not
know what Alt is called in others OS:es.) I made a mistake when I once in
my patched Emacs chosen the Windows key for Emac's META. It would have been
much better if I had chosen the Caps Lock (Shift Lock) key. However at that
time I did not know/realize MS would put more restrictions on the use of
the Windows key. But using Alt as Emac's META is not good for new users. I
would suggest Caps Lock instead. (And I think that is possible with a
slight twitch of my keyboard patch. But I do not have time to look into it
now.)

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:

> Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200
>>> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
>>>
>>> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
>>>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
>>>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)
>>>
>>> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.
>>>
>>> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
>>> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.
>>
>> When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago?
>>
>
>
> At the very first screen C-v is presented.
> Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this.
> While later, certainly, it's preferable.
>
> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
> That must have been changed very recently ;)

Perhaps.  On the other hand, I use C-v M-v C-p and C-n much much more
often than the arrows and pgup/down keys, just for the 10 cm out (+ 10
cm back) I would have to move my hand to use them.

I only use arrows when I don't have my hands on the keyboards in the
first place, and even, to scroll down SPC is in a lot of mode much more
convenient too.

What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to
do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure
them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of
them) are quite _optimized_.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jan Djärv]

Hi.

> 23 sep 2013 kl. 15:43 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
> 
> Some important things are of course still missing for new users: C-c and C-x (only text is selected), C-v and C-z (always). Making cua-mode default would make those things much more stable. And better for new users.

That would be so wrong for new users on OSX. 

     Jan D. 

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Andreas Röhler]

Am 23.09.2013 16:04, schrieb Pascal J. Bourguignon:
> Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes:
>
>> Am 23.09.2013 09:07, schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>>>> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 08:03:30 +0200
>>>> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de>
>>>>
>>>> Am 23.09.2013 02:18, schrieb Lennart Borgman:
>>>>> The tutorial kind of throws other keybindings than the arrow keys on the
>>>>> new user. Kind of patronizing if someone asks me. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Putting users first attention at that kind of matter, it also spreads a quit unjust and wrong impression WRT Emacs and it's people.
>>>>
>>>> That tutorial probably was okay twenty years ago.
>>>> No it reads as vim's ":q" is envied, proving emacs can make it difficult too.
>>>
>>> When did you read it last time? also 20 years ago?
>>>
>>
>>
>> At the very first screen C-v is presented.
>> Nowadays keyboards commonly have an own key for it, no need to bother beginners with this.
>> While later, certainly, it's preferable.
>>
>> Next screen tells about C-p, C-n
>> That must have been changed very recently ;)
>
> Perhaps.  On the other hand, I use C-v M-v C-p and C-n much much more
> often than the arrows and pgup/down keys, just for the 10 cm out (+ 10
> cm back) I would have to move my hand to use them.
>
> I only use arrows when I don't have my hands on the keyboards in the
> first place, and even, to scroll down SPC is in a lot of mode much more
> convenient too.

Perfectly right. But, we definitely aren't talking WRT experienced Emacs users,
the tutorial is about beginners at the very first day on earth.


>
> What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to
> do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure
> them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of
> them) are quite _optimized_.
>
>

So this thread seems taking the route.

A tutorial should start to tell what Emacs is about.
Basic edits are so common nowadays, any extra here might come later.

Let's the menu display all basic commands and keys and refer the beginner to menu.
But tell why we are using Emacs and not any other tool.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> > 23 sep 2013 kl. 15:43 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
> >
> > Some important things are of course still missing for new users: C-c and
> C-x (only text is selected), C-v and C-z (always). Making cua-mode default
> would make those things much more stable. And better for new users.
>
> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
>
>      Jan D.


Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 15:43:46 +0200
> Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <dgutov@yandex.ru>, 
> 	Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > > And how about Ctl-arrow key? Does that move a "word"? If combined with
> > > Shift does it select?
> >
> > Yes and yes.
> >
> 
> Oh, that is really good news! :-)
> But you did not mention anything about PgUp/PgDn.

Those, too.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Alp Aker]

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>> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.

> Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?

It uses a different modifier.

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Richard Stallman]

        [ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider
        [ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,
        [ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.

Perhaps post a comment on reddit  to show what the tutorial really says.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Juri Linkov]

> there needs to be a "theory of the keymap" for CUA as powerful
> as the theory provided by the traditional Emacs bindings which
> extends CUA to cover the editing features provided by Emacs.

In fact, Emacs bindings already extend CUA: in addition to
such CUA bindings as C-x cut and C-c copy, shifted variants
S-C-x and S-C-c pass their bindings to the default prefix map.
Also like M-f that moves forward one word and C-M-f that
moves forward one expression, the keys M-right and C-M-right
extend CUA to do the equivalent.  Also M-backspace kills one word
backward while C-M-backspace kills one expression backward,
oops, it kills X :-(

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Alp Aker <alptekin.aker@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
>
> > Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?
>
>  It uses a different modifier.
>

Thanks, I see. Did you have something else in mind, Jan? Is there any
obstacle having cua-mode on by default on OSX

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2013 15:43:46 +0200
> > Cc: Jay Belanger <jay.p.belanger@gmail.com>, Brief Busters <
> dgutov@yandex.ru>,
> >       Pascal Bourguignon <pjb@informatimago.com>, Emacs-Devel devel <
> emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > > > And how about Ctl-arrow key? Does that move a "word"? If combined
> with
> > > > Shift does it select?
> > >
> > > Yes and yes.
> > >
> >
> > Oh, that is really good news! :-)
> > But you did not mention anything about PgUp/PgDn.
>
> Those, too.
>

I am glad to see this, Eli! :-)

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 2:47 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Clearly, cursor motion is not part of this issue.  The only group of
> bindings for which I'm willing to accept such claims are the CUA
> copy/paste bindings and perhaps Undo/Redo, C-o for "Open" and C-s for
> "Save".  Because everything else is anyway specific to the
> application.

And C-n for "Open New file", C-S-s for "Save As", C-p for "Print", C-a
for "Select All", C-f for "Find", I think.

-- 
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Xue Fuqiao]

On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Pascal J. Bourguignon
<pjb@informatimago.com> wrote:
> What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to
> do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure
> them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of
> them) are quite _optimized_.

But they are hard to press.  In the Space-cadet keyboard[fn:1], one of
the early Lisp Machine keyboards, Ctrl key besides the space bar
(similar to the position of Alt keys on PC keyboards), and Meta to the
left of Ctrl.  So, the Ctrl key is easier to press than Meta.  This is
why, the key bindings for the most used commands in Emacs involve the
Ctrl key instead of the Meta key, I think.  But Ctrl is not easy to
press now.  Yes, we can move the Ctrl key[fn:2], but many new users
don't know that.

And some commands that are frequently used, such as {open, save, close
buffer}, all require multiple keystrokes with the difficult Ctrl key.

Footnotes:

[fn:1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg

[fn:2] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MovingTheCtrlKey

-- 
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Pascal J. Bourguignon]

Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Pascal J. Bourguignon
> <pjb@informatimago.com> wrote:
>> What I mean is that perhaps concentrating on keys is the wrong thing to
>> do, vs. concentrating on bindings and the fact that you can configure
>> them as you want, and that the default bindings (foremost the oldest of
>> them) are quite _optimized_.
>
> But they are hard to press.  In the Space-cadet keyboard[fn:1], one of
> the early Lisp Machine keyboards, Ctrl key besides the space bar
> (similar to the position of Alt keys on PC keyboards), and Meta to the
> left of Ctrl.  So, the Ctrl key is easier to press than Meta.  This is
> why, the key bindings for the most used commands in Emacs involve the
> Ctrl key instead of the Meta key, I think.  But Ctrl is not easy to
> press now.  Yes, we can move the Ctrl key[fn:2], but many new users
> don't know that.

That's the problem.  Let's solve it, put that in your .xmodmap:

!------------------------------------------------------------
! Sixth line
!------------------------------------------------------------

keycode  37 = Super_L       
keycode 133 = Meta_L
keycode  64 = Control_L
keycode  65 = space         space       digitspace          digitspace
keycode 108 = Control_R
keycode 134 = Meta_R
keycode 135 = Super_R
keycode 105 = Hyper_R



> And some commands that are frequently used, such as {open, save, close
> buffer}, all require multiple keystrokes with the difficult Ctrl key.
>
> Footnotes:
>
> [fn:1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg
>
> [fn:2] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/MovingTheCtrlKey

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__
http://www.informatimago.com/

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jan Djärv]

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Hello.

24 sep 2013 kl. 14:35 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Alp Aker <alptekin.aker@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
> 
> > Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?
> 
> It uses a different modifier.
> 
> Thanks, I see. Did you have something else in mind, Jan? Is there any obstacle having cua-mode on by default on OSX

No, I did not have anything else in mind.  The OSX equivalents to C-c, C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x, Cmd-z) and more already work as they do in other OSX applications in Emacs.  Turning on CUA mode per default is just wrong on OSX, nobody uses those keybindings for copy/paste et.al.

	Jan D.


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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> 24 sep 2013 kl. 14:35 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
>
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Alp Aker <alptekin.aker@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
>>
>> > Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?
>>
>>  It uses a different modifier.
>>
>
> Thanks, I see. Did you have something else in mind, Jan? Is there any
> obstacle having cua-mode on by default on OSX
>
>
> No, I did not have anything else in mind.  The OSX equivalents to C-c,
> C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x, Cmd-z) and more already work as
> they do in other OSX applications in Emacs.  Turning on CUA mode per
> default is just wrong on OSX, nobody uses those keybindings for copy/paste
> et.al.
>
> Jan D.
>
>
I see. I had no idea of that. What do people use for copy/paste etc in
other applications on OSX? Is there another standard?

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Davis Herring]

> And some commands that are frequently used, such as {open, save, close
> buffer}, all require multiple keystrokes with the difficult Ctrl key.

This is something of a red herring: the frequency of file commands like
these is negligible compared to the frequency of editing/motion
commands, so it does no harm (aside from breaking some users'
expectations) to have them use longer keys.

Moreover, opening a file can't be faster than picking the file, which
(even with sophisticated completion and filecache and the like) is
slower than C-x C-f by a fair margin.  Saving a file is all but unneeded
in Emacs anyway.

Only `kill-buffer' could really be considered too slow, what with its
extra RET.  I bind a key to `bury-buffer' and tend to use it instead
(mostly for dabbrev).

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jan Djärv]

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Hi. 

> 24 sep 2013 kl. 16:21 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>> Hello.
>> 
>>> 24 sep 2013 kl. 14:35 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Alp Aker <alptekin.aker@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
>>>> 
>>>> > Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?
>>>> 
>>>> It uses a different modifier.
>>> 
>>> Thanks, I see. Did you have something else in mind, Jan? Is there any obstacle having cua-mode on by default on OSX
>> 
>> No, I did not have anything else in mind.  The OSX equivalents to C-c, C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x, Cmd-z) and more already work as they do in other OSX applications in Emacs.  Turning on CUA mode per default is just wrong on OSX, nobody uses those keybindings for copy/paste et.al.
>> 
>> 	Jan D.
>> 
> 
> I see. I had no idea of that. What do people use for copy/paste etc in other applications on OSX? Is there another standard?

Eh, I just told you.  It takes less than a  minute to check anyway. If you don't care to do that, you should not be suggesting defaults. 

    Jan D. 

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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Sorry, Jan, but I have no idea what you mean. Did you tell me if you think
there is something like CUA on OSX? Or do you think someone not familiar
with OSX can look that up in a few minutes? (I am sure I can't.)
On Sep 24, 2013 7:31 PM, "Jan Djärv" <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:

> Hi.
>
> 24 sep 2013 kl. 16:21 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
>
> On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> 24 sep 2013 kl. 14:35 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Alp Aker <alptekin.aker@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> >> That would be so wrong for new users on OSX.
>>>
>>> > Please educate me, Jan. Does not OSX use some variant CUA by default?
>>>
>>>  It uses a different modifier.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, I see. Did you have something else in mind, Jan? Is there any
>> obstacle having cua-mode on by default on OSX
>>
>>
>> No, I did not have anything else in mind.  The OSX equivalents to C-c,
>> C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x, Cmd-z) and more already work as
>> they do in other OSX applications in Emacs.  Turning on CUA mode per
>> default is just wrong on OSX, nobody uses those keybindings for copy/paste
>> et.al.
>>
>> Jan D.
>>
>>
> I see. I had no idea of that. What do people use for copy/paste etc in
> other applications on OSX? Is there another standard?
>
>
> Eh, I just told you.  It takes less than a  minute to check anyway. If you
> don't care to do that, you should not be suggesting defaults.
>
>     Jan D.
>

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Jan Djärv]

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Hello.

24 sep 2013 kl. 19:48 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:

> Sorry, Jan, but I have no idea what you mean. Did you tell me if you think there is something like CUA on OSX? Or do you think someone not familiar with OSX can look that up in a few minutes? (I am sure I can't.)
> 
> 

Are you annoying on purpose, or are you pulling my leg?
Well, in the world outside, there is this thing called internet.  You can search it for various information, one such place is Google.  There you can type in (for example) "osx default key shortcuts".  Then you find pages like this (first hit):

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1343

Scroll down to Application and other OS X shortcuts, near the middle.

Jeez...

	Jan D.


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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 8:06 PM, Jan Djärv <jan.h.d@swipnet.se> wrote:

> Hello.
>
> 24 sep 2013 kl. 19:48 skrev Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>:
>
> Sorry, Jan, but I have no idea what you mean. Did you tell me if you think
> there is something like CUA on OSX? Or do you think someone not familiar
> with OSX can look that up in a few minutes? (I am sure I can't.)
>
>
> Are you annoying on purpose, or are you pulling my leg?
> Well, in the world outside, there is this thing called internet.  You can
> search it for various information, one such place is Google.  There you can
> type in (for example) "osx default key shortcuts".  Then you find pages
> like this (first hit):
>
> http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1343
>
> Scroll down to Application and other OS X shortcuts, near the middle.
>
> Jeez...
>
> Jan D.
>
>
Thanks, no I am neither pulling your leg or being annoying on purpose. Just
as little as you I hope. I just know very little about OSX. And even less
about the keyboard/keyboard shortcuts there. ;-)

Fine. Then I believe I understand what you mean. So on OSX the CUA-keys are
placed on COMMAND-* instead of CONTROL-* and they therefore does not clash
with Emacs - which I assume uses CONTROL as Emacs' Ctl?

It looks to me like you can both use OSX's default editing shortcuts and
Emacs' dito by default. In that keys it looks very good in my opinion.

In my opinion that should be possible in default Emacs on Windows too.
(Which require at least cua-mode is on by default.)

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Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[chad]

Jan answered your question right before you asked it.

On 24 Sep 2013, at 13:48, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote:

>> ...The OSX equivalents to C-c, C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x, Cmd-z) and more already work as they do in other OSX applications in Emacs. 
> 
> I see. I had no idea of that. What do people use for copy/paste etc in other applications on OSX? Is there another standard?


To reiterate, in macosx, those commands use the Command key (also
called the `clover key' in older macos versions) instead of Control.
It's next to the space bar, and labelled both `command' and ⌘. On
macosx, Emacs already uses these key combinations, as Jan mentioned.

I'll admit that I was tempted to say this before, but decided that
internet communication, Windows- versus macosx- versus unix-habits,
first-language differences, and a general desire to assume the
better rather than worse in the community changed my mind.

I hope that helps,
~Chad

Re: Yet another discussion on improving the first time user experience

[Lennart Borgman]

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On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 5:42 PM, chad <yandros@mit.edu> wrote:

> Jan answered your question right before you asked it.
>
> On 24 Sep 2013, at 13:48, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> ...The OSX equivalents to C-c, C-v, C-x. C-z (i.e. Cmd-C, Cmd-v, Cmd-x,
> Cmd-z) and more already work as they do in other OSX applications in Emacs.
> >
> > I see. I had no idea of that. What do people use for copy/paste etc in
> other applications on OSX? Is there another standard?
>
>
> To reiterate, in macosx, those commands use the Command key (also
> called the `clover key' in older macos versions) instead of Control.
> It's next to the space bar, and labelled both `command' and ⌘. On
> macosx, Emacs already uses these key combinations, as Jan mentioned.
>
> I'll admit that I was tempted to say this before, but decided that
> internet communication, Windows- versus macosx- versus unix-habits,
> first-language differences, and a general desire to assume the
> better rather than worse in the community changed my mind.
>
> I hope that helps,
> ~Chad


Thanks Chad. There is nothing wrong with assuming that the other person do
not know what you know. As long as you do not consider it a deficit.

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