Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[N. Jackson]

Hello Emacs Dev,

This weekend I reverted to using the Org Mode package bundled with the
Emacs 25.0.95 pre-test. (I normally use the package from GNU Elpa, and
more recently the org-plus-contrib package directly from
http://orgmode.org/elpa/.)

I noticed that the bundled package in 25.0.95 is 8.2.10. This is the
same Org Mode package that was bundled with Emacs 24.5 around 15 months
ago, so it is very old.

Will Emacs 25 not feature an update to Org?

Thanks.

N.

Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Robert Weiner]

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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:12 AM, N. Jackson <nljlistbox2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Will Emacs 25 not feature an update to Org?
>

​It would be great also if someone who knows could summarize the update
process that occurs for packages added to Emacs that are maintained by
someone who is not a committer to the Emacs tree.
How are updates provided and to whom?  How are updates reflecting within a
package's external git log or ChangeLog reflected in Emacs NEWS and in the
Emacs manual?

It would be good for everyone to understand the process that the Emacs
maintainers see for large packages like Org.

Bob

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Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson)
> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 11:12:41 -0300
> 
> Hello Emacs Dev,
> 
> This weekend I reverted to using the Org Mode package bundled with the
> Emacs 25.0.95 pre-test. (I normally use the package from GNU Elpa, and
> more recently the org-plus-contrib package directly from
> http://orgmode.org/elpa/.)
> 
> I noticed that the bundled package in 25.0.95 is 8.2.10. This is the
> same Org Mode package that was bundled with Emacs 24.5 around 15 months
> ago, so it is very old.
> 
> Will Emacs 25 not feature an update to Org?

I think it's a question that you should ask the Org developers.
AFAIK, it is they who decide when to import a new Org version into
Emacs.

Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[John Wiegley]

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>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Will Emacs 25 not feature an update to Org?

EZ> I think it's a question that you should ask the Org developers. AFAIK, it
EZ> is they who decide when to import a new Org version into Emacs.

The Org maintainer contacted me directly, and I decided it was too late to
upgrade to 8.3. His request came after the pretests were being issued, and
this upgrade is a bit more disruptive than others (so much so, I myself had to
downgrade to 8.2 to keep my Org files working the way I wanted them to).

I'd be happy to include 8.3 in a 25.2 point release, once we get this current
release finished, but it's too late to think of updating large sub-components
now.

This is also a further argument for Org-mode to be released through ELPA,
rather than Emacs core, in which case none of this would be a real problem --
except for the recent bug reported concerning org-capture.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

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Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[N. Jackson]

At 09:14 -0700 on Monday 2016-07-18, John Wiegley wrote:
>
> This is also a further argument for Org-mode to be released through ELPA,
> rather than Emacs core, in which case none of this would be a real problem --
> except for the recent bug reported concerning org-capture.

Released through ELPA and bundled into the tarball (from the ELPA
version) would seem to be ideal.

[This model might in fact have been of (minor) benefit wrt the recent
org-capture bug (or any other Org bug manifesting as a result of a
change in core), because more Org Mode users would be on the same
version of Org at the same time.]

Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Robert Weiner]

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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 12:14 PM, John Wiegley <jwiegley@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is also a further argument for Org-mode to be released through ELPA,
> rather than Emacs core, in which case none of this would be a real problem
> --
> except for the recent bug reported concerning org-capture.


​This makes sense as packages are likely to evolve much faster than Emacs.
But there is something missing in Emacs presently that would make this a
much more attractive option to package developers who want the broadest
base of users.  There needs to be a simple, single function call to require
a package which would automatically download, build, install and activate
it (a flag could control whether or not this actually happened
automatically or if the user were prompted to confirm, etc).
Of course, there would be a way to require a particular version or the
latest version of a package from the first matching archive in use by the
package manager.  There is already a flag to require that the package be
digitally signed.  Maybe this feature could be connected to autoloads as
well.

The main issue I see right now is that packages are installed on a per-user
basis rather than a per-Emacs site basis, so you would get a lot more code
instance duplication and version management issues than you would have with
a package integrated into Emacs core.

With this feature, Emacs core programmers could start referencing external
packages as if they were already installed and Org could potentially move
back out of core.

If we can find consensus that this would be a good thing to add, I might be
willing to develop it.

Bob

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Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Stefan Monnier]

> But there is something missing in Emacs presently that would make this a
> much more attractive option to package developers who want the broadest
> base of users.  There needs to be a simple, single function call to require
> a package which would automatically download, build, install and activate
> it (a flag could control whether or not this actually happened
> automatically or if the user were prompted to confirm, etc).

Doesn't package-install do that?

Of course, I smell some connection to the fact that Emacs developers
(including myself) have been opposed to making Emacs open up network
connections (e.g. at startup) without explicit request from the user.

> The main issue I see right now is that packages are installed on a per-user
> basis rather than a per-Emacs site basis, so you would get a lot more code
> instance duplication and version management issues than you would have with
> a package integrated into Emacs core.

ELPA packages can be installed site-wide just fine.  There's no obvious
direct support to do that, admittedly, but it's just a small matter of
designing the UI (and default layout) and coding it.  I had such support
in install.el and it's really not hard to add.  And at least under
Debian you can install various ELPA packages site-wide via Debian's
package manager.

> With this feature, Emacs core programmers could start referencing external
> packages as if they were already installed and Org could potentially move
> back out of core.

Emacs core does not reference Org, AFAICT.


        Stefan

Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Robert Weiner]

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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> Emacs core does not reference Org, AFAICT.


​I meant code shipped in the Emacs distribution.

Bob
​

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Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Robert Weiner]

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On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> > But there is something missing in Emacs presently that would make this a
> > much more attractive option to package developers who want the broadest
> > base of users.  There needs to be a simple, single function call to
> require
> > a package which would automatically download, build, install and activate
> > it (a flag could control whether or not this actually happened
> > automatically or if the user were prompted to confirm, etc).
>
> Doesn't package-install do that?
>

​Mostly.  I don't think it handles updates.  Maybe another function
package-require could handle this need (essentially requiring remote
libraries rather than just local ones).


> Of course, I smell some connection to the fact that Emacs developers
> (including myself) have been opposed to making Emacs open up network
> connections (e.g. at startup) without explicit request from the user.
>

​There should be an enable- flag with a default of nil to allow for this.

> The main issue I see right now is that packages are installed on a
> per-user
> > basis rather than a per-Emacs site basis, so you would get a lot more
> code
> > instance duplication and version management issues than you would have
> with
> > a package integrated into Emacs core.
>
> ELPA packages can be installed site-wide just fine.  There's no obvious
> direct support to do that, admittedly, but it's just a small matter of
> designing the UI (and default layout) and coding it.  I had such support
> in install.el and it's really not hard to add.  And at least under
> Debian you can install various ELPA packages site-wide via Debian's
> package manager.
>

​This would be good.
​
Bob

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Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Weiner <rsw@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 12:40:10 -0400
> 
> With this feature, Emacs core programmers could start referencing external packages as if they were already
> installed and Org could potentially move back out of core.

If Org is as important as people said in the recent discussion (and I
believe it is indeed that important), then we will never want it to
move out of core, so that Emacs always comes with Org bundled.

Re: Org Mode version to be bundled with Emacs 25?

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> "EZ" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

EZ> If Org is as important as people said in the recent discussion (and I
EZ> believe it is indeed that important), then we will never want it to move
EZ> out of core, so that Emacs always comes with Org bundled.

I would like to go into 'tarball ELPA': That section of ELPA which is always
bundled with each release, but which core packages may not depend on.

This different from 'core ELPA' which both goes into the release tarball, AND
core packages may depend on them (i.e., a mechanism exists to copy from ELPA
into core at suitable times).

All of which is distinguished from 'package ELPA', which people would install
from as they do now, using M-x package-install.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2