From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Robert Weiner Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Subject: Call for testers for GNU Hyperbole 5.12, a large, useful Emacs package Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:20:18 -0400 Message-ID: References: <1c45cff0-8b33-8dd1-c385-4f8675ff4fd6@yandex.ru> Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1466374873 3356 80.91.229.3 (19 Jun 2016 22:21:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 22:21:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Mats Lidell , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 20 00:21:06 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5U-0003f6-BX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 00:21:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40234 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5T-0001Zq-A8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:21:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48436) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5K-0001YK-QL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:20:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5G-0000yd-Ea for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:20:53 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:32768) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5G-0000y8-BM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:20:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ob0-f170.google.com ([209.85.214.170]:34802) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bEl5E-0007lR-Me for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 18:20:48 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ob0-f170.google.com with SMTP id y7so2762450obt.1 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tInpugfZqwcQDx/SkSJnmFEOs57GGs1mgxiBQLN8zrMatnM0WNPJIQ6+5lvIOFRQy0zn/Q68BlmlcE2JQ== X-Received: by 10.157.14.174 with SMTP id 43mr6718229otj.83.1466374847918; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.202.236.73 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:20:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:204551 Archived-At: On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 06/19/2016 11:58 PM, Robert Weiner wrote: > >> People really like to talk abstractly here, which is fun, but doesn't >> help move things forward too far when you could just as easily describe >> exactly what you mean. > > > And from my side, the demo wasn't abstract enough: it described some things > at a lower level, like press this, push that, instead of giving a brief > overview of that all this stuff is about, and why I would want to push > buttons. Fair enough. The HY-ABOUT file available on {C-h h d a} tells you what it is all about and should be mentioned in the HY-README file. > A button that computes a factorial is not particularly convincing, > I could do that just as easily via an interactive function. True. You probably want {C-h h d t} which lets you browse all of the implicit button types and action types. That shows you a lot of built in behavior but would overwhelm most people for whom the demo is meant. You are definitely not a typical user (that's a compliment). > >> Did you find the demo useful or not? Did you >> like that it seemed more of a tutorial or not? > > > Somewhat, and no. It was overly long as a demo, it gave me a taste of > understanding of what buttons mean in Hyperbole, but not why I would want to > use them, as opposed to the regular tools (interactive functions and key > bindings) that are already available in Emacs. Or maybe I was expecting too > much. That is good feedback. We will use it as we update the demo considering all of the new capabilities in Emacs since Hyperbole was last published. > > Yes, buttons that link to an arbitrary files or directories, or that launch > any command look neat, but it's not very obvious what kind of new and > amazing workflows they allow, if any. That's like asking what workflow Lisp can enable. Hyperbole is a toolkit, like Emacs, that you mold to your needs. It has a lot of built-in behavior but is not limited by this. > >> There is a 150 page manual with extensive >> cross-references for more detail but a few more sections are yet to be >> written. > > > I hope you can forgive if I'm not in any hurry to spend time on that. You either want depth or a taste. I am pointing you to more resources for both. > >> A demo is when you expend minimal effort and mostly observe the >> niceties of a program/package/website/etc, in a condensed form. >> >> >> Hyperbole is highly interactive, so we want people to interact with it. > > > "Here are lots of buttons, click on them" would be fine. Maybe ease on on > the terminology. You can tell the user to press S-mouse-2 without > introducing the term "Action Key", etc. If you get into Hyperbole more, you will certainly understand why we name that key and don't use a specific mouse button name much. > > And halfway through, the buttons stop, and the "demo" starts describing the > normal Emacs features (maybe with some minor twists). Doesn't sound like > demo material. I'll look at that. > >> I don't know want ACME is. But what would you be switching from? > > > Switching from Emacs. Acme is/was a Plan 9 editor: Why would you switch from Emacs to use Hyperbole? They complement each other. And you can't be saying you were looking at switching from Acme to Emacs with Hyperbole. > > http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/acme/ > >> How >> else can you interactively create buttons with elisp actions in Emacs? > > > Never really felt the urge before. In part because you couldn't maybe. I guess people didn't create many hyperbuttons before the web either but look at them now. Yet, that is still a hard process. With Hyperbole, it is easy. > >> - "Depress the Action Key somewhere within this paragraph >> and while holding it down, depress the Assist Key." doesn't lead to >> the desired effect, or maybe I just understand the instructions. >> >> >> I will check. There was a problem with this but I believe it was fixed >> in 5.12. You need to be holding down shift-mouse2 and then press >> shift-mouse3 or vice versa to see help for the first key pressed. > > > That would be "press", not "depress", wouldn't it? Still doesn't work, > though. Send us your system specifics so we can possibly replicate the problem. With Hyperbole, you can do this with {C-h h m c}. Bob