From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: JD Smith Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:03:05 -0500 Message-ID: References: <86sf1qsxs9.fsf@gnu.org> <86r0has2v3.fsf@gnu.org> <87il2lx4uh.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DB5562A8-394A-4803-9247-DE1B806FD63A" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11256"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: Po Lu , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 18 15:04:00 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhlw-0002o1-1k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 15:04:00 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhlS-00057L-5k; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:03:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhlP-00055d-Ty for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:03:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rbhlN-0000Ml-1J; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 09:03:27 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-3c132695f1bso2732503b6e.2; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 06:03:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708264998; x=1708869798; darn=gnu.org; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wAfLd6qTedA6+w7hEUpncwVIwh+cpYaY4p9o1o0uhQc=; b=nKy7ZAlg+W3BnlIOdQjv5b0TGGkAURSxnxIzcnhzD0dQ9HrUQhGK4wbOtfNofRawsT r4tpLTHPjDZnfiYfUmT1VYXViD3LbG+Rwwl+A3SeVeEP1X2IeTrppLQwNCYsu1lI6j/V K/BjCh1ZxpSKHYDnaAGqsMuVyRKpq8zZClRUG4uwK4shwEbrVpvTR6zFxpXASwH2k8e0 C3YAklqe4fCSXeGYZva1s5ePnBJK11R8qx0G6AnP6tbI+7Q2Txhj6xFqYR8K+l11f3cR hQ8PDmfRfyaQ5KtYoFqpcJobYikYTT4/M3csPzF9K6iWjZvc6+hKQeFXAiMxrRcs3UPi RgGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708264998; x=1708869798; h=references:to:cc:in-reply-to:date:subject:mime-version:message-id :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wAfLd6qTedA6+w7hEUpncwVIwh+cpYaY4p9o1o0uhQc=; b=aj78gqMto03660cTY3XVN3DdyCi2n0WxfuymMtCHT6rooL4Bf/TkIc3gB3onfQvtew ZMsverSenfvBljI+ZMNhiz9Nbu4fbkHA+GHUxnXUnvfNmeNpPJjdzypCNmgtvu/OtuIC LotXWdVGJoqFP9YJPksLXqnQQEDcMvQJiMgoTC2bRoNARmSfx2bMs/ZxAY+WTAL/YGis PhID5eSsCPjuyIntwrfVaUwFtGRR9PojSdBZe/cDtRNsUPb2Z4Qj0707NR+TWi0fI/mT WZaQ3TvoPey2a6OXR/IBGknLlyoXAvrMcF/qwueysuz2AQEZy2vRLRp/UdkZAOj3iwBt FAcA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUcmdHZHyNKLJ0Njin6MHSkeTbqeLxiMSZmL4yUhTwl4X6QksZUIxX18TeHipKVAw7tTyPtYsKdh6JI9Ao= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwGQQuwwPpLZVwFCGOJrbx1g6FxmDyOd7D8s3AhmxejaGXocoQs TBKb2xfApOzPVLONsvnH/JEzjKVLf7WH0bLyDItxdtejNkZRKkQVQQdwkHa6cjU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFAWuPlmZqP1OpguTlhe9hyw4sJgxGkFIuPgMIQEM9j8cUGpn+5aISZC0FA/esRZQhuOVj06g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:198d:b0:3c1:55ad:dd25 with SMTP id bj13-20020a056808198d00b003c155addd25mr1702841oib.59.1708264997631; Sun, 18 Feb 2024 06:03:17 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (cm-24-53-187-34.buckeyecom.net. [24.53.187.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id kl7-20020a05622a2c4700b0042a29013f15sm1686594qtb.82.2024.02.18.06.03.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 18 Feb 2024 06:03:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87il2lx4uh.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::230; envelope-from=jdtsmith@gmail.com; helo=mail-oi1-x230.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316314 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_DB5562A8-394A-4803-9247-DE1B806FD63A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Feb 18, 2024, at 8:46=E2=80=AFAM, Po Lu wrote: >=20 > JD Smith writes: >=20 >> Maybe I should be more specific here: I don't think the cost/benefit >> favors having it in the core ready to fire up when any .pro file is >> loaded (since there are other unrelated flavors with that file type = in >> the wild, e.g. Qt config files, which confuses people) >=20 > That's easily resolved, if we judge that this is an issue. >=20 >> or having the IDLWAVE manual appear at the top level of M-x info (as >> nice as a manual it is, and as hard as I worked on it lo those many >> years ago). >=20 > Likewise. But if I may digress a little, why should it be ever a > problem that an index or directory contain information of marginal > interest, when that is the rationale for maintaining such a directory = to > begin with? And why is IDLWAVE more of a problem than the remainder = of > our eclectic corpus of manuals, many of which are to the average user = no > more relevant than is IDLWAVE? To be found in the card catalog of any > library are the answers to both these questions, as the Info = directory's > role is quite comparable to theirs. This is the slippery slope I alluded to, and it is a credible argument. = To explore its boundaries, let's consider a scenario in which the IDL = language were well and truly dead. No existing licensed interpreter = capable of running IDL code existed any longer on any system (licenses = expire). Would maintaining this package in the core be worth it at that = point? If not, this indicates that the costs are indeed non-zero. >> hand. A small package that is effectively invisible and never loads >> unless the user summons it has fewer costs in this way of looking at >> it. >=20 > This description could also apply to IDLWAVE as it stands in core. I wonder if all agree on that point? Consider: git log --pretty=3D"format:%an" lisp/progmodes/idlw*.el = doc/misc/idlwave.texi | perl -ne 'chomp; $a{$_}++; END{foreach $n (sort = {@a{$b} <=3D> @a{$a}} keys %a) {printf("%30s\t%s\n",$n,"+" x $a{$n})}}' =20= This reveals that an impressive 39 individual maintainers have had their = hand in the code over the last 20 years, some with more than 80 commits. = Yes, many of these are find/replace typos or other "no additional cost" = commits, but many are not.= --Apple-Mail=_DB5562A8-394A-4803-9247-DE1B806FD63A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Feb 18, = 2024, at 8:46=E2=80=AFAM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> = wrote:

JD Smith = <jdtsmith@gmail.com> writes:

Maybe = I should be more specific here: I don't think the cost/benefit
favors = having it in the core ready to fire up when any .pro file is
loaded = (since there are other unrelated flavors with that file type in
the = wild, e.g. Qt config files, which confuses = people)

That's easily resolved, if we judge that = this is an issue.

or having the IDLWAVE = manual appear at the top level of M-x info (as
nice as a manual it = is, and as hard as I worked on it lo those many
years = ago).

Likewise.  But if I may digress a little, = why should it be ever a
problem that an index or directory contain = information of marginal
interest, when that is the rationale for = maintaining such a directory to
begin with?  And why is IDLWAVE = more of a problem than the remainder of
our eclectic corpus of = manuals, many of which are to the average user no
more relevant than = is IDLWAVE?  To be found in the card catalog of any
library are = the answers to both these questions, as the Info directory's
role is = quite comparable to = theirs.

This = is the slippery slope I alluded to, and it is a credible = argument.  To explore its boundaries, let's consider a scenario in = which the IDL language were well and truly dead.  No existing = licensed interpreter capable of running IDL code existed any longer on = any system (licenses expire).  Would maintaining this package in = the core be worth it at that point?  If not, this indicates that = the costs are indeed non-zero.

hand.  A small = package that is effectively invisible and never loads
unless the user = summons it has fewer costs in this way of looking = at
it.

This description could also apply to = IDLWAVE as it stands in = core.

I wonder if all agree = on that point?  Consider:

git log = --pretty=3D"format:%an" lisp/progmodes/idlw*.el doc/misc/idlwave.texi | = perl -ne 'chomp; $a{$_}++; END{foreach $n (sort {@a{$b} <=3D> = @a{$a}} keys %a) {printf("%30s\t%s\n",$n,"+" x $a{$n})}}' =  


This reveals that an = impressive 39 individual maintainers have had their hand in the code = over the last 20 years, some with more than 80 commits.  Yes, many = of these are find/replace typos or other "no additional cost" commits, = but many are not.
= --Apple-Mail=_DB5562A8-394A-4803-9247-DE1B806FD63A--