From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#8492: 23.3; Time to use a different binding for completion? Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:49:19 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87zknuhxl4.fsf@sc3d.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1303315665 2301 80.91.229.12 (20 Apr 2011 16:07:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:07:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 8492@debbugs.gnu.org To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Reuben Thomas'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 20 18:07:40 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZwH-0005S0-JS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:07:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33312 helo=lists2.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZwH-0001YQ-1r for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:07:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:44335) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZwB-0001Y5-7M for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:07:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZw7-0002JR-PE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:07:31 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:36044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZw7-0002JN-MA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:07:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZfH-0005Nc-2W; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:50:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-To: owner@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:50:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 8492 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 8492-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B8492.130331457520644 (code B ref 8492); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:50:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 8492) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Apr 2011 15:49:35 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZen-0005Mt-G3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:49:33 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QCZel-0005Me-Hy for 8492@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:49:32 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p3KFnNBv021589 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:25 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p3KFnMVJ014307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:49:22 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt003.oracle.com (abhmt003.oracle.com [141.146.116.12]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id p3KFnLcv032762; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:49:21 -0500 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:49:21 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acv/YCFArCReOKnASrmVpWODjiMC+gAC6xYg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6090 X-Source-IP: acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090207.4DAF0082.00C8:SCFSTAT5015188,ss=1,fgs=0 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:50:03 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:45888 Archived-At: > Currently, the "usable default" is ESC TAB. > It's a bit longwinded, so it'd be good to find a better solution. It's not very longwinded. It was used for a very long time before ALT + TAB was available for the same thing. It was used by many perfectly capable and fast programmers, including the one who wrote Emacs (practically overnight) and gcc. ;-) Likewise `C-M-i' - not very longwinded, and long available for this. And anyway it doesn't really matter all that much how longwinded a _default_ binding is. (Yes, there is no reason to purposefully use longer bindings when better, shorter ones can be found.) > Since this problem has been around for a long time and no good key has > popped up during this time, I believe that using TAB is the > way forward, which means we need to figure out ways to make it work in > the cases where it currently doesn't. So your logic is that simply because you cannot find an available key you want to complicate the behavior of the command so that it acts, in effect, as multiple commands depending on the context. That's not a good argument. Occam stands with his razor against it - you are multiplying things needlessly. Keep it simple. Find a key or let users find their own key for a simple, straightforward command (i.e., that does only what M-TAB does currently). Forget about combining 36 different behaviors on the same key. In practice, so-called "DWIM" too often means lousy, half-baked compromises and "do-what-some-programmer-who-thought-herself-clever-figured-would-be-innovative- and-loved-by-everyone". The "I" in DWIM is too seldom the user, and the "WIM" is too seldom accurate. Do I really care, for M-TAB or `completion-at-point'? Not much. I do care that we needlessly complicate the behavior of keys with compromised, not-so-clever-after-all DWIM-wittedness. Please go back to the problem itself and look for a simple solution _to it_. M-TAB is not easily available on several systems. OK, so you want a different key as the default binding for `completion-at-point' (or whatever). OK, so pick another key. Problem solved. But please do not redesign the behavior to become hydra-headed so it tries to adapt to multiple contexts, just because you cannot think of a good default key. That makes little sense. And TAB, in particular, is *not* "the way forward for this". If ever there was a key *not* to double-up on for this (triple? quadruple? pentuple?), TAB is it. It's just about the poorest choice possible here. (Yes, I am aware that some users have done exactly what you suggest and like the effect. Pick any behavior and you will find some users who are happy with it to the point of proselytizing. But such a chimera is not a good solution for vanilla Emacs.) Just one opinion, and no, I do not really care much. But this is misguided, IMHO.