From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: always put Customizations in `custom-file', never in `user-init-file' Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:08:30 -0800 Message-ID: References: <475DB8B8.1070107@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1197328263 5443 80.91.229.12 (10 Dec 2007 23:11:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 23:11:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel To: "Jason Rumney" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 11 00:11:13 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J1rmG-00081J-L4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:11:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1rly-0005qU-VY for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:10:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J1rkp-0004nE-2v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:09:39 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J1rkn-0004mL-7j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:09:38 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J1rkn-0004mG-33 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:09:37 -0500 Original-Received: from rgminet01.oracle.com ([148.87.113.118]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J1rkg-0007Vv-E3; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 18:09:31 -0500 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by rgminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.6) with ESMTP id lBAN9R1k028542; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:09:27 -0700 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id lBAH1bXX009125; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 16:09:27 -0700 Original-Received: from dhcp-4op11-4op12-west-130-35-178-158.us.oracle.com by acsmt350.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3427973631197328106; Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:08:26 -0800 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <475DB8B8.1070107@gnu.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:84998 Archived-At: > > Now that we have a good alternative (`custom-file'), I > > think that should be used exclusively. > > The alternative has always been there, in what cases is it not used now? If `custom-file' is nil, then Customizations are added to `user-init-file'. They are not added to a separate custom file. > When custom was first introduced, the default name for this file was > .custom.el, so the decision to put everything in .emacs where the user > can find it was a concious one, probably for good reasons. I assumed it was a conscious one. The good reasons at that time (can anyone state them?) might no longer be so good. They might have included not wanting to disturb existing habits, such as expecting all customization code to be in .emacs. Or perhaps the potential problems were not sufficiently considered at that time. Who knows? And that decision could not benefit from hindsight. Encouraging users to edit their own customizations in a file that also contains Customize customizations (which generally should not be edited) is just asking for trouble. I am sure (but I have no proof) that it has caused some users trouble. I am convinced (but you can change my mind) that such trouble can reasonably be avoided by keeping Customize away from `user-init-file'. You are welcome to restate any pertinent arguments from that discussion of so long ago. Without seeing the arguments, however,... I think there is a problem. It's generally unclean to mix automatically generated code with user-edited code in the same file. Let's hear arguments about the problem (really a problem or not?) or the solution (what I suggested or another). > I certainly disagree with your proposal to restrict the value > of custom file to actively prevent users from putting > customizations in their user-init-file, What restriction are you referring to? No one suggested preventing users from putting customizations in `user-init-file'. That's what `user-init-file' is for, after all! What I suggested was preventing Customize from putting Customize customizations (custom-set-*) in `user-init-file'. I explicitly said that: >> I think it was probably a mistake ever to have put >> Customize customizations into a file intended for editing. > and [I certainly disagree] with having Emacs move > customizations that are already there. And your reason is? ("I certainly disagree" is not a reason.)