From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: help-fns.el patch for commands to describe options and commands Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:22:05 -0700 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1192933349 20591 80.91.229.12 (21 Oct 2007 02:22:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 02:22:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stefan Monnier" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 21 04:22:29 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1IjQSS-00066N-KE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2007 04:22:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQSK-0002ur-Pf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:22:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQSG-0002uc-WB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:22:17 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQSE-0002uP-Es for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:22:15 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjQSE-0002uM-1Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:22:14 -0400 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1IjQS5-0006O3-A3; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 22:22:05 -0400 Original-Received: from agmgw2.us.oracle.com (agmgw2.us.oracle.com [152.68.180.213]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l9L2M1dZ000410; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 21:22:01 -0500 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by agmgw2.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.0/Switch-3.2.0) with ESMTP id l9L2M1K2012177; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 20:22:01 -0600 Original-Received: from 141.144.88.58 by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3308527861192933304; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 19:21:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:81326 Archived-At: > > Yes. When you are looking for a command, you don't want to see a zillion > > non-interactive functions as candidates. This cuts down that noise > > *considerably*. > > I could buy that. But those users for whom it matters most won't know to > use the C-u prefix. And usually the C-u prefix means something like "give > me more control", so it would make more sense to only list > commands/options > and let C-u specify that we actually want to see all functions/variables. Yes, that might make more sense, and some other commands work just that way (but it is not "usually" the case). But the command is called `describe-function' (or `describe-variable'), so it could be argued that it should by default do what its name says. There is also legacy to consider, FWIW. `C-u' means lots of different things, depending on the command. A common meaning is that it does something related but a bit different (and often less common). The special meaning of wider scope is not general, but it does apply to some other help commands, such as `apropos'. "Give me more control" doesn't mean much to me. One could argue that restricting the scope is using more control - or the opposite - or whatever. The users for whom it matters most, in the sense of finding the command, will find and use `describe-command' instead. The users for whom it matters most for `describe-function' to have this optional behavior are probably not newbies. I, for one, use `C-u C-h f' instead of `describe-command'. But that's mainly because I have not bound `describe-command' to a key.