Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Juri Linkov]

> 3. It would also be helpful to bind `S-mouse-2' in Info to a command that
> follows an Info link in a new window.

Or better to use bindings like in Web browsers: `S-mouse-1' to follow
a link in a new frame, `C-mouse-1' to follow a link in a new window
(or a tab when tabs will be implemented in Emacs).

> That way, a user could keep the `L' or the `I' buffer (or a TOC or an
> index or any other node) open while visiting its links in another window
> (or frame, with non-nil pop-up-frames).
>
> I have used this definition:
>
> (defun Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node-new-window (click)
>     "Open the link at the mouse pointer in a new window."
>     (interactive "e")
>     (Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node click t)) ; t no good now
>
> But that particular implementation no longer works, because someone over the
> course of Emacs 22 development removed the optional FORK argument to
> `Info-follow-nearest-node' and `Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node'. (Why?)

`Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node' never had the FORK argument.
`Info-follow-nearest-node' still has it, but there were plans to remove it.

> Regardless of how it is implemented, it would be useful. You can do the same
> thing by cloning the buffer and then following a link, but it is particulaly
> handy to do this with just a mouse click.

This is a question of implementation.  We can implement a command that
will clone the current manual, follow the requested node in a new copy,
and display it accordingly to the command arguments.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > 3. It would also be helpful to bind `S-mouse-2' in Info to a
> > command that follows an Info link in a new window.
>
> Or better to use bindings like in Web browsers: `S-mouse-1' to follow
> a link in a new frame, `C-mouse-1' to follow a link in a new window
> (or a tab when tabs will be implemented in Emacs).

a. Perhaps we can get agreement about the functionality first, then about
the binding. It sounds as if at least you and I agree about this part.

b. Wrt the binding, I do disagree. I set `mouse-1-click-follows-link' to nil
(I think that should be the default, BTW). I want `mouse-2' to be the
standard link-following binding. I want commands such as the proposed one to
be on `mouse-2' with modifiers. To me, it was an aberration to introduce
`mouse-1' linking to Emacs as anything other than an option (i.e. not the
default).

No, I don't want to reopen that discussion; I mention it here because I
think it is relevant. `mouse-2' is still the standard link-follower - there
is no option to remove it, as there is for `mouse-1'. The modifier bindings
should be made accordingly: to `mouse-2'.

If there are many voices for `S-mouse-1' etc., then I'd ask that
`mouse-1-click-follows-link' act for them as well, but, still, `S-mouse-2'
would be the standard, following the Emacs `mouse-2' convention.

> > That way, a user could keep the `L' or the `I' buffer (or a TOC or an
> > index or any other node) open while visiting its links in another window
> > (or frame, with non-nil pop-up-frames).
> >
> > I have used this definition:
> >
> > (defun Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node-new-window (click)
> >     "Open the link at the mouse pointer in a new window."
> >     (interactive "e")
> >     (Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node click t)) ; t no good now
> >
> > But that particular implementation no longer works, because
> > someone over the course of Emacs 22 development removed the
> > optional FORK argument to
> > `Info-follow-nearest-node' and `Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node'. (Why?)
>
> `Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node' never had the FORK argument.
> `Info-follow-nearest-node' still has it, but there were plans to
> remove it.

You're right, on both counts. I think I left in the above code hoping that
FORK would be added in response to my request for it: 2006-01-08, Subject
"Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node should take prefix arg to fork". I had
forgotten that thread. Richard's response was to wait until after the
release (22). Your response was that FORK was a deprecated feature
(presumably you were referring to the non-mouse command).

So let me repeat my 2006 request, since the release is now out: Let's add
the FORK arg - or else find some other way to implement
`Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node-new-window'. It is a useful command.

> > Regardless of how it is implemented, it would be useful. You
> > can do the same thing by cloning the buffer and then following
> > a link, but it is particulaly
> > handy to do this with just a mouse click.
>
> This is a question of implementation.  We can implement a command that
> will clone the current manual, follow the requested node in a new copy,
> and display it accordingly to the command arguments.

Fine. I really don't care how the behavior I described is implemented. I'm
speaking as a user here, saying that I think this functionality would be
useful. People use it all the time when surfing the Web, however their
browser might let them open a link in another window. In IE, for instance,
you can choose "Open in New Window" in the right-click context menu.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Lennart Borgman (gmail)]

Drew Adams wrote:
> If there are many voices for `S-mouse-1' etc., then I'd ask that
> `mouse-1-click-follows-link' act for them as well, but, still, `S-mouse-2'
> would be the standard, following the Emacs `mouse-2' convention.

I am for S-mouse-1 to open the link a new frame (mouse-1 follow link of 
course) since that is what most users would expect.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > If there are many voices for `S-mouse-1' etc., then I'd ask that
> > `mouse-1-click-follows-link' act for them as well, but, still,
> > `S-mouse-2' would be the standard, following the Emacs `mouse-2'
> > convention.
>
> I am for S-mouse-1 to open the link a new frame (mouse-1 follow link of
> course) since that is what most users would expect.

1. `mouse-1' does not follow a link, "of course" - that behavior is
user-configurable, and so should be the behavior of `S-mouse-1'. That was my
point.

Personally, I am against `mouse-1' following links by default, and likewise
`S-mouse-1', but I can live with a counter decision. But in any case, this
must be user-controllable with a user option. I proposed to use
`mouse-1-click-follows-link' to control both.


2. And I proposed that we revisit the default value of
`mouse-1-click-follows-link', now that people have had ample opportunity to
try it. We made the default value what it is for the reason you gave, IIRC:
it "is what most [new] users would expect". But those same new users might
prefer the opposite configuration if they were aware of it.

There are many cases where we prefer and choose a different default behavior
from what people might be used to outside of Emacs, because the Emacs
behavior is superior. I, for one, think this is the case for `mouse-2' and
links. It is really not difficult to figure out that you click `mouse-2' to
follow text that is highlighted when you mouseover it.

I think this is a case of pandering to external habit with no real benefit.
Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
`mouse-1-click-follows-link'? Outside of Emacs, there is not the same need
for the normal use of `mouse-1' to set point. Yes, we have found a mostly
workable way for `mouse-set-point' to coexist with following links. But I
find it to be a poor juggling of conflicting behaviors and a poor substitute
for the superior behavior of `mouse-1' to set point and `mouse-2' to follow
links.

Why is there not such a conflict between `mouse-2's role in pasting and its
role in following links? I suppose it's because you paste less often than
you set point, and you don't paste into a link. Honestly, pre-Emacs 22, did
you ever run into a UI conflict between pasting and following a link? And
just as honestly, with Emacs 22 have you ever accidentally followed a link
when you just wanted to select a buffer or window or move the cursor?

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Johan Bockgård]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
> `mouse-1-click-follows-link'?

I sure don't.

-- 
Johan Bockgård

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Stefan Monnier]

> Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
> `mouse-1-click-follows-link'?

I do keep it as default, because I want to suffer like the most naive user,
to make sure that it's a bearable suffering (and yes, I find it bearable,
although I do get bitten on a somewhat regular basis clicking on an email
address in a header or a URL when I only meant to place point there).


        Stefan "I don't do that for each and every option, mind you"

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
> > `mouse-1-click-follows-link'?
>
> I do keep it as default, because I want to suffer like the most
> naive user, to make sure that it's a bearable suffering (and yes,
> I find it bearable, although I do get bitten on a somewhat
> regular basis clicking on an email address in a header or a URL
> when I only meant to place point there).
>
>         Stefan "I don't do that for each and every option, mind you"

"Bearable" and getting "bitten on a somewhat regular basis" hardly
constitute a ringing endorsement. I wouldn't buy an insect repellent based
on that testimonial. ;-)

We should reward your spirit, anyway. Chapeau! Please accept this honorific
hair shirt for going above and beyond. As another reward, take a 3-month
vacation from `mouse-1' following links. You deserve it, and you'll feel
much better.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Davis Herring]

[Sorry if this arrives twice; my mailer says it didn't send it the first
time.]

> Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
> `mouse-1-click-follows-link'? Outside of Emacs, there is not the same
> need for the normal use of `mouse-1' to set point.  Honestly,
> pre-Emacs 22, did you ever run into a UI conflict between pasting and
> following a link? And just as honestly, with Emacs 22 have you ever
> accidentally followed a link when you just wanted to select a buffer
> or window or move the cursor?

I keep that default value without trouble.  I don't think I have ever
wanted to mouse-paste into a link, but mouse-1 is certainly easier to use
when one's mouse-2 is a wheel.  And I don't think I've ever accidentally
followed a link, because I rarely want to set point in one (they're not
often editable, for instance) and I rarely want to set point with the
mouse anyway (with the exception of long, wrapped buffer lines where some
short sequence of arrows, word motion, and C-a/C-e doesn't do what I
want).  If I did want to set point in a link, the same absurd amount of
conditioning (in such places as web browsers) that produced the mouse-1
suggestion in the first place makes me think twice about just clicking, so
that I remember to hold the button for a bit without any trouble.

(That said, I don't really care one way or the other about what mouse-1
does on a link; it's not exactly hard to, after mouse-1 just sets point,
move a finger by a centimeter and use mouse-2 instead.  I just don't think
that the current default is a bad one.)

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
> > `mouse-1-click-follows-link'? Outside of Emacs, there is not the same
> > need for the normal use of `mouse-1' to set point.  Honestly,
> > pre-Emacs 22, did you ever run into a UI conflict between pasting and
> > following a link? And just as honestly, with Emacs 22 have you ever
> > accidentally followed a link when you just wanted to select a buffer
> > or window or move the cursor?
>
> I keep that default value without trouble.  I don't think I have ever
> wanted to mouse-paste into a link, but mouse-1 is certainly easier to use
> when one's mouse-2 is a wheel.

How so? Perhaps it depends on the wheeled mouse, but I've never had any
difficulty using the wheel as `mouse-2'. No doubt you have the same problem
yanking with the mouse? Or perhaps you don't yank with the mouse either?

> And I don't think I've ever accidentally
> followed a link, because I rarely want to set point in one (they're not
> often editable, for instance) and I rarely want to set point with the
> mouse anyway (with the exception of long, wrapped buffer lines where some
> short sequence of arrows, word motion, and C-a/C-e doesn't do what I
> want).

Fair enough. Consider people who do use a mouse to set point, particularly
those who have a click-to-focus window manager and who use multiple frames.

Perhaps using `mouse-1' to follow links is less annoying for folks who don't
use the mouse to set point ;-). I am curious, though, why you use a mouse to
follow links but not to set point.

Wrt wanting to set point in a link - I don't think that is so much the
question as wanting to set point (or just establish focus) and accidentally
landing on a link.

The place where I'm bitten most often (when I use emacs -Q) is clicking a
file name in Dired to then do something with that file. Drives me nuts that
it opens the file. (But I'm sure that, like Stefan, with time and patience I
could get in the habit of avoiding this annoyance much of the time.)

> If I did want to set point in a link, the same absurd amount of
> conditioning (in such places as web browsers) that produced the mouse-1
> suggestion in the first place makes me think twice about just clicking, so
> that I remember to hold the button for a bit without any trouble.

"Absurd amount of conditioning", indeed. ;-)

> (That said, I don't really care one way or the other about what mouse-1
> does on a link; it's not exactly hard to, after mouse-1 just sets point,
> move a finger by a centimeter and use mouse-2 instead.  I just don't think
> that the current default is a bad one.)

Yes, that is another argument for reversing the default behavior.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Richard Stallman]

    "Bearable" and getting "bitten on a somewhat regular basis" hardly
    constitute a ringing endorsement. I wouldn't buy an insect repellent based
    on that testimonial. ;-)

This feature was set up as it is to provide compatibility with many
other graphical interfaces.  We expected this to be good for
beginners.  If helps beginners start using Emacs, it is worth keeping.
Experienced people can customize it.

Whether it really achieves that goal, I don't know.  It would be nice
to get some real data about that, but that is not a trivial task.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Davis Herring]

> How so? Perhaps it depends on the wheeled mouse, but I've never had any
> difficulty using the wheel as `mouse-2'. No doubt you have the same
> problem yanking with the mouse? Or perhaps you don't yank with the mouse
> either?

The wheel is smaller than the (other) buttons, and takes some care to get
just a mouse-2 and not a wheel-scroll then mouse-2 (which would paste
somewhere else!).  I don't yank much with the mouse (I can after all have
C-y ready with one hand while the other just uses mouse-1), but I can; I'm
not saying that wheels are impossible to use as buttons, just harder. 
(They might very well be unusable for someone who had impaired fine motor
control.)

> Fair enough. Consider people who do use a mouse to set point, particularly
> those who have a click-to-focus window manager and who use multiple
> frames.

It's not all that different: I use click-to-focus (largely because I
sometimes like to shove the mouse out of the way), and at the moment I
have a whole two Emacs frames open on each of two machines.  And, as I
said, I do sometimes use the mouse to set point; it's just that that
rarity combined with the rarity of wanting to set point in, say, *Help* in
the first place that makes the whole thing a non-issue for me.

> Perhaps using `mouse-1' to follow links is less annoying for folks who
> don't use the mouse to set point ;-). I am curious, though, why you use a
> mouse to follow links but not to set point.

Because I typically want to edit (with the keyboard) after I set point,
and not after I click a link (which corresponds to "browing" Help or Info
or code, rather than editing same).  Links are often in other windows
and/or are one of many similar choices, and I find them to be best
selected with a pointer.

> Wrt wanting to set point in a link - I don't think that is so much the
> question as wanting to set point (or just establish focus) and
> accidentally landing on a link.

My links are underlined, and my text in general is not, so I don't find
myself unsure what will happen if I click; I also automatically click in
the blank space of a window to select it (to avoid activating anything in
it), although this sometimes means that I need to go back to where I was!

> The place where I'm bitten most often (when I use emacs -Q) is clicking a
> file name in Dired to then do something with that file. Drives me nuts
> that it opens the file. (But I'm sure that, like Stefan, with time and
> patience I could get in the habit of avoiding this annoyance much of the
> time.)

I always use C-s ... RET RET in that case.  But at this point we're just
comparing usage patterns of two Emacs users, so if we are to continue we
might as well take a real survey on the subject.

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[David Kastrup]

"Davis Herring" <herring@lanl.gov> writes:

> [Sorry if this arrives twice; my mailer says it didn't send it the first
> time.]
>
>> Honestly, how many of you (not new users) keep the default value of
>> `mouse-1-click-follows-link'? Outside of Emacs, there is not the same
>> need for the normal use of `mouse-1' to set point.  Honestly,
>> pre-Emacs 22, did you ever run into a UI conflict between pasting and
>> following a link? And just as honestly, with Emacs 22 have you ever
>> accidentally followed a link when you just wanted to select a buffer
>> or window or move the cursor?
>
> I keep that default value without trouble.

I too.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > How so? Perhaps it depends on the wheeled mouse, but I've never had any
> > difficulty using the wheel as `mouse-2'. No doubt you have the same
> > problem yanking with the mouse? Or perhaps you don't yank with the mouse
> > either?
>
> The wheel is smaller than the (other) buttons,

Yes, it is.

> and takes some care to get just a mouse-2 and not a wheel-scroll
> then mouse-2 (which would paste somewhere else!).

No, that was fixed in Emacs 22, AFAIK.

> I don't yank much with the mouse (I can after all have
> C-y ready with one hand while the other just uses mouse-1), but I can; I'm
> not saying that wheels are impossible to use as buttons, just harder.
> (They might very well be unusable for someone who had impaired fine motor
> control.)

Any manipulation might well be unusable by someone with a corresponding
fine-motor control problem.

> > Fair enough. Consider people who do use a mouse to set point,
> > particularly those who have a click-to-focus window manager
> > and who use multiple frames.
>
> It's not all that different: I use click-to-focus (largely because I
> sometimes like to shove the mouse out of the way), and at the moment I
> have a whole two Emacs frames open on each of two machines.  And, as I
> said, I do sometimes use the mouse to set point; it's just that that
> rarity combined with the rarity of wanting to set point in, say, *Help* in
> the first place that makes the whole thing a non-issue for me.

OK, we can count you as not having been (very) bothered by mouse-1 following
links, in spite of using click-to-focus.

> > Perhaps using `mouse-1' to follow links is less annoying for folks who
> > don't use the mouse to set point ;-). I am curious, though, why
> > you use a mouse to follow links but not to set point.
>
> Because I typically want to edit (with the keyboard) after I set point,
> and not after I click a link (which corresponds to "browing" Help or Info
> or code, rather than editing same).  Links are often in other windows
> and/or are one of many similar choices, and I find them to be best
> selected with a pointer.
>
> > Wrt wanting to set point in a link - I don't think that is so much the
> > question as wanting to set point (or just establish focus) and
> > accidentally landing on a link.
>
> My links are underlined, and my text in general is not, so I don't find
> myself unsure what will happen if I click;

Not in Dired. Not in *Buffer List*. The example I used of accidentally
hitting a link was Dired.

> I also automatically click in
> the blank space of a window to select it (to avoid activating anything in
> it), although this sometimes means that I need to go back to where I was!

Yes, and not only that. In Dired, as I said, you (or I, at least) might want
to put the cursor on a file or directory name, in order to do something with
that file or directory.

Of course, you can try clicking to the left or right of the file name,
but... That's the kind of workaround I want to get away from. And in my
case, I often have everything in Dired except the file names hidden
(dired-details.el).

> > The place where I'm bitten most often (when I use emacs -Q) is
> > clicking a file name in Dired to then do something with that
> > file. Drives me nuts that it opens the file. (But I'm sure that,
> > like Stefan, with time and patience I could get in the habit of
> > avoiding this annoyance much of the time.)
>
> I always use C-s ... RET RET in that case.

_If_ that window or frame is already selected. Or else you need to get to
that window or frame. In my case, it is usually a frame, and the mouse is
the quickest way to get there.

> But at this point we're just comparing usage patterns of two
> Emacs users,

I was going to say the same thing. You have described a pattern of use where
it doesn't bother you. So we can count you as someone whom it doesn't
bother.

> so if we are to continue we might as well take a real survey
> on the subject.

Hence my question (granted, a question posed here is not equivalent to a
survey of non-newbie users, but it's a start).

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

>     "Bearable" and getting "bitten on a somewhat regular basis" hardly
>     constitute a ringing endorsement. I wouldn't buy an insect
>     repellent based on that testimonial. ;-)
>
> This feature was set up as it is to provide compatibility with many
> other graphical interfaces.  We expected this to be good for
> beginners.  If helps beginners start using Emacs, it is worth keeping.
> Experienced people can customize it.
>
> Whether it really achieves that goal, I don't know.  It would be nice
> to get some real data about that, but that is not a trivial task.

Here's a thought -

Have `ask' be the default value of `mouse-1-click-follows-link', and have a
behavior similar to that of `disable-command':

If the value is `ask', then the first time (only) that a user clicks a link
with `mouse-1', s?he is asked this:

 "You have clicked a link using `mouse-1'. In Emacs, clicking
 `mouse-2' follows links, and `mouse-1' has other uses.
 Do you also want clicking `mouse-1' to follow links?"

If the answer is "yes", then the value is changed to 450 (the current
default value). Otherwise, it is changed to nil. The new value is saved
(Customize). A message echoes the new value and the option name, for future
reference.

This behavior has these advantages:

* It tells the user which button `mouse-1' is ("You have clicked...").

* It makes the user aware of what the choices are and what the variable is
that governs them.

* It requires an explicit user choice. It does so at the right time: first
link click.

* It states that `mouse-2' is standard for following links and it will
continue to follow links in any case. It does not explicitly refer to any
disadvantages for `mouse-1' following links, but `mouse-2' as the "standard"
might lead some new users to give it a try. Many new users are open to
learning the Emacs way.

* It has zero impact on anyone who has already customized the option. It has
negligeable impact on anyone who has not - a user need answer the question
at most once.

WDOT?

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Here's a thought -
>
> Have `ask' be the default value of `mouse-1-click-follows-link', and have a
> behavior similar to that of `disable-command':
>
> If the value is `ask', then the first time (only) that a user clicks a link
> with `mouse-1', s?he is asked this:
>
>  "You have clicked a link using `mouse-1'. In Emacs, clicking
>  `mouse-2' follows links, and `mouse-1' has other uses.
>  Do you also want clicking `mouse-1' to follow links?"
>
> If the answer is "yes", then the value is changed to 450 (the current
> default value). Otherwise, it is changed to nil. The new value is saved
> (Customize). A message echoes the new value and the option name, for future
> reference.
>
> This behavior has these advantages:
>
> * It tells the user which button `mouse-1' is ("You have clicked...").
>
> * It makes the user aware of what the choices are and what the variable is
> that governs them.
>
> * It requires an explicit user choice. It does so at the right time: first
> link click.
>
> * It states that `mouse-2' is standard for following links and it will
> continue to follow links in any case. It does not explicitly refer to any
> disadvantages for `mouse-1' following links, but `mouse-2' as the "standard"
> might lead some new users to give it a try. Many new users are open to
> learning the Emacs way.
>
> * It has zero impact on anyone who has already customized the option. It has
> negligeable impact on anyone who has not - a user need answer the question
> at most once.
>
> WDOT?

Very bad idea.  Emacs should be usable out of the box.  People should
not be _forced_ to customize anything to make it so.  It is a
particularly bad mistake to force a _beginner_ to make a decision
about his future working habits and then casting this decision in
stone (it will be much harder to figure out how to change it then it
was to set it).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Stefan Monnier]

> WDOT?

Doesn't sound bad.  Except for the -Q use where being asked every time would
be annnoying.  I.e. only ask the question if the result *can* be saved for
future use.


        Stefan

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> Doesn't sound bad.  Except for the -Q use where being asked every
> time would
> be annnoying.  I.e. only ask the question if the result *can* be saved for
> future use.

Good point.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> If the value is `ask', then the first time (only) that a user
> clicks a link with `mouse-1', s?he is asked this:

It occurred to me that I should have drawn attention to the "with `mouse-1'
here. A user who never clicks a link with `mouse-1' is never asked the
question.

Only a user who naively expects `mouse-1' to follow a link will be informed
that standard Emacs behavior is to use `mouse-2' and asked to confirm that
s?he wants `mouse-1' to also follow links.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Richard Stallman]

    Have `ask' be the default value of `mouse-1-click-follows-link', and have a
    behavior similar to that of `disable-command':

I can't believe beginners would prefer that.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

>     Have `ask' be the default value of
>    `mouse-1-click-follows-link', and have a
>     behavior similar to that of `disable-command':
>
> I can't believe beginners would prefer that.

Why not? If you have never used an application, and you just do what you are
used to doing, but there is a better, alternative behavior that is in fact
the standard behavior in that application, wouldn't you want to know about
it?

These are the alternatives:

1. Have both m-1 and m-2 follow links, by default.

A newbie who tries m-1 doesn't learn about m-2. S?he later encounters some
difficulties because of the m-1 peculiarities. M-1 is not quite what s?he
expected, and s?he will not have been told about those differences. S?he
doesn't know about m-2 and s?he doesn't really understand this special m-1
either.

2. Have only m-2 follow links, by default.

The newbie discovers that m-1 doesn't follow links, but s?he doesn't learn
that m-2 follows links or that s?he can configure m-1 to also follow links.

3. Do what I suggested.

The first time (only) the newbie tries m-1 on a link, s?he is informed about
both m-2 and the possibility of having m-1 also follow links.

#1 is Emacs 22.  #2 is more or less pre-22.  #3 should be Emacs 23.  Let the
user know more to control more.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>>     Have `ask' be the default value of
>>    `mouse-1-click-follows-link', and have a
>>     behavior similar to that of `disable-command':
>>
>> I can't believe beginners would prefer that.
>
> Why not?

Because Emacs is configured right from the start not to work, but
rather force the user to configure things and make permanent decisions
before he even has a chance to get acquainted with Emacs and form an
opinion.

It also means that if some sysadmin calls Emacs on another user's
account, he only has the choice to avoid using mouse-1, or to
permanently reconfigure the user's Emacs, taking his choice from him
in future.

It is not like I haven't explained this already once.  Do you ignore
negative input on purpose?

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Juri Linkov]

> People use it all the time when surfing the Web, however their browser
> might let them open a link in another window. In IE, for instance, you
> can choose "Open in New Window" in the right-click context menu.

Can we adopt this to Info?  mouse-3 is bound to mouse-save-then-kill,
but in most other programs the equivalent function is bound to S-mouse-1
which in Emacs is bound to mouse-set-font which is useless on the mouse
button because it is not context-dependent and affects the whole frame,
not the position pointed by the mouse.  It's better to add the font menu
to the main frame menu.

This suggestion is of course not for changing the default key bindings,
but for compatibility key bindings defined by packages like cua.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Juri Linkov]

> 3. It would also be helpful to bind `S-mouse-2' in Info to a command that
> follows an Info link in a new window. That way, a user could keep the `L' or
> the `I' buffer (or a TOC or an index or any other node) open while visiting
> its links in another window (or frame, with non-nil pop-up-frames).

I now understood that you mean something different than I thought.
It seems you want something like the "target" HTML link attribute,
where clicking on different links in the index visits each link
in the same separate window from the index window.  If it is what
you meant, I'm unsure how feasible it is.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > 3. It would also be helpful to bind `S-mouse-2' in Info to a
> >    command that follows an Info link in a new window. That way,
> >    a user could keep the `L' or the `I' buffer (or a TOC or an
> >    index or any other node) open while visiting
> >    its links in another window (or frame, with non-nil pop-up-frames).
>
> I now understood that you mean something different than I thought.
> It seems you want something like the "target" HTML link attribute,
> where clicking on different links in the index visits each link
> in the same separate window from the index window.  If it is what
> you meant, I'm unsure how feasible it is.

Now maybe I'm misunderstanding ;-). What you describe sounds like what I
mean. But it is also exactly what I sent in the patch. That's what
`Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node' does: it follows the link it's clicked on
in a new window. Maybe I don't understand you - how is what you now think I
mean different from `Info-mouse-follow-nearest-node'?

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> > People use it all the time when surfing the Web, however their browser
> > might let them open a link in another window. In IE, for instance, you
> > can choose "Open in New Window" in the right-click context menu.
>
> Can we adopt this to Info?  mouse-3 is bound to mouse-save-then-kill,
> but in most other programs the equivalent function is bound to S-mouse-1
> which in Emacs is bound to mouse-set-font which is useless on the mouse
> button because it is not context-dependent and affects the whole frame,
> not the position pointed by the mouse.  It's better to add the font menu
> to the main frame menu.
>
> This suggestion is of course not for changing the default key bindings,
> but for compatibility key bindings defined by packages like cua.

I like Emacs's mouse-3 binding for selecting text - including in Info. I'd
prefer that we keep the context menu on C-mouse-3, in Info as in other
buffers where it is available. That fits better with Emacs, IMO. Emacs users
can learn soon enough where it is, and it's good that its location be
relatively consistent.

I like the idea of getting rid of the S-mouse-1 font-dialog binding. I use
S-mouse-1 clicks (in most buffers) to enlarge the frame font, and I use
`C-S-mouse-1' clicks to shrink the frame font. But that's just a personal
binding and I agree that, other things being equal, it's good to save mouse
bindings for things that can take advantage of the specific mouse location.

More discussion on this might help. I don't see why we shouldn't discuss
changing default bindings as well - S-mouse-1 in particular.

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> Because Emacs is configured right from the start not to work,

It sure is. That's why I proposed something that would make it work. ;-)

> but rather force the user to configure things
> and make permanent decisions
...
> permanently reconfigure the user's Emacs,
> taking his choice from him in future.
...
> casting this decision in stone   [from your preceding mail]

Permanent decisions? Permanently reconfigure? Nothing permanent about it.
Stop your scare tactics, please. By your same logic, such a "permanent
decision" is made now by you for the user - before s?he even starts up.

It is not my proposal that reduces user awareness, choices, and the ability
to control things - on the contrary. It will let users know: (1) that the
behavior can be changed and (2) which option to change. Currently, they
haven't got a clue.

> Do you ignore negative input on purpose?

I don't shy away from logical argument. Stefan, for instance, offered a
correction regarding the behavior with emacs -Q. Other arguments might
convince me that I'm completely wrong.

It's even happened that you, David, have presented an argument or two that
was convincing and made me change my mind. And I have not hesitated to show
my support when I agree with you on some issue. I don't particularly care
about you one way or the other, personally; it's the ideas that interest me,
yours or anyone else's. I do care about you, however, in that I sincerely
appreciate your service to Emacs and the Emacs community.

Although I don't avoid negative argument, I do try to ignore your
"permanently configured" knee-jerk slurs and vitriol. Alas, I don't always
succeed. I try not to take your nastiness personally; it is reassuring to
see you act similarly with others. ;-) Anyway, if I don't reply to your
negative input, it's likely that that is the reason - I perceive too much
heat, not enough light.

Technical arguments welcome. Save the bullying for the playground.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> Because Emacs is configured right from the start not to work,
>
> It sure is. That's why I proposed something that would make it work. ;-)
>
>> but rather force the user to configure things
>> and make permanent decisions
> ...
>> permanently reconfigure the user's Emacs,
>> taking his choice from him in future.
> ...
>> casting this decision in stone   [from your preceding mail]
>
> Permanent decisions? Permanently reconfigure? Nothing permanent
> about it.  Stop your scare tactics, please. By your same logic, such
> a "permanent decision" is made now by you for the user - before s?he
> even starts up.

But it isn't the user that is forced to make a decision.  The decision
has been made by knowledgable people after long discussions, agreeing
on the most likely useful default.  We have long discussions here in
order to arrive at an Emacs useful out of the box for everyone.

In contrast, the amount of information regarding Emacs' standard
interfaces and conventions to a user is close to zero for a beginner.
A beginner does not _want_ to make semi-permanent decisions before
getting acquainted with the system.

> It is not my proposal that reduces user awareness, choices, and the
> ability to control things - on the contrary. It will let users know:
> (1) that the behavior can be changed and (2) which option to
> change. Currently, they haven't got a clue.
>
>> Do you ignore negative input on purpose?
>
> Although I don't avoid negative argument, I do try to ignore your
> "permanently configured" knee-jerk slurs and vitriol.

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  Just because the effects are quite
negative for a beginner and I describe them as such, this does not
make my response a knee-jerk or vitriol.

> Anyway, if I don't reply to your negative input, it's likely that
> that is the reason - I perceive too much heat, not enough light.
>
> Technical arguments welcome. Save the bullying for the playground.

This is a technical argument.  And not addressing it does not
particularly improve the impression that you have thought this
through.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

RE: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Drew Adams]

> >> but rather force the user to configure things
> >> and make permanent decisions
> > ...
> >> permanently reconfigure the user's Emacs,
> >> taking his choice from him in future.
> > ...
> >> casting this decision in stone   [from your preceding mail]
> >
> > Permanent decisions? Permanently reconfigure? Nothing permanent
> > about it.  Stop your scare tactics, please. By your same logic, such
> > a "permanent decision" is made now by you for the user - before s?he
> > even starts up.
>
> A beginner does not _want_ to make semi-permanent decisions before
> getting acquainted with the system.

From "permanent" to "semi-permanent" - that's progress. Soon maybe you will
recognize that there's nothing semi-, quasi-, or in even the slightest bit
permanent about it. It's simply a customizable setting, just as it is today.

Help the user be aware of that setting the first time s?he tries to use
mouse-1 for a link - that's the idea.

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[David Kastrup]

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

>> >> but rather force the user to configure things
>> >> and make permanent decisions
>> > ...
>> >> permanently reconfigure the user's Emacs,
>> >> taking his choice from him in future.
>> > ...
>> >> casting this decision in stone   [from your preceding mail]
>> >
>> > Permanent decisions? Permanently reconfigure? Nothing permanent
>> > about it.  Stop your scare tactics, please. By your same logic, such
>> > a "permanent decision" is made now by you for the user - before s?he
>> > even starts up.
>>
>> A beginner does not _want_ to make semi-permanent decisions before
>> getting acquainted with the system.
>
> From "permanent" to "semi-permanent" - that's progress. Soon maybe
> you will recognize that there's nothing semi-, quasi-, or in even
> the slightest bit permanent about it.

Oh yes, there is: the newbie has no clue how he can ever change this
setting again.  It will take quite a lot of learning to undo this
change, a change which he is forced to make.

> It's simply a customizable setting, just as it is today.

But the user is not forced to change the pristine default today.

> Help the user be aware of that setting the first time s?he tries to
> use mouse-1 for a link - that's the idea.

"be aware" is quite different from "be forced to make a decision about
it".  So you probably should try another way of realizing your idea.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: generate 3) S-mouse-2: follow link in new window

[Richard Stallman]

I have the feeling that this discussion has become a drain on the
attention of the people participating in it (which does not include
me), and I tend to think it won't lead to accomplishing anything.