From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: "CHANGED outside Customize" in frames customization group Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:14:45 -0800 Message-ID: References: <47768503.9010108@gmx.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1198952099 2444 80.91.229.12 (29 Dec 2007 18:14:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:14:59 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel To: "martin rudalics" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 29 19:15:12 2007 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1J8gDG-0003qQ-4q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:15:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8gCu-0003Rp-IX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:14:48 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J8gCq-0003Qb-4D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:14:44 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1J8gCo-0003OG-Ky for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:14:43 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J8gCo-0003Nw-Eq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:14:42 -0500 Original-Received: from agminet01.oracle.com ([141.146.126.228]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1J8gCo-0008EA-8s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 13:14:42 -0500 Original-Received: from rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (rgmgw1.us.oracle.com [138.1.186.110]) by agminet01.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id lBTIEb0P019299; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 12:14:38 -0600 Original-Received: from acsmt351.oracle.com (acsmt351.oracle.com [141.146.40.151]) by rgmgw1.us.oracle.com (Switch-3.2.4/Switch-3.2.4) with ESMTP id lBTIEaYx002300; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 11:14:37 -0700 Original-Received: from dhcp-amer-csvpn-gw1-141-144-64-21.vpn.oracle.com by acsmt351.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3468984251198952072; Sat, 29 Dec 2007 10:14:32 -0800 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <47768503.9010108@gmx.at> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAAI= X-Whitelist: TRUE X-Whitelist: TRUE X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:85626 Archived-At: > >>Maybe these variables shouldn't be customizable in the first place. > >>Else we should try to improve the user interface. > > > > I do hope that first suggestion is an early April Fool's joke. ;-) > > Why do you think so? The doc-string of `default-frame-alist' states: > > These may be set in your init file, like this: > (setq default-frame-alist '((width . 80) (height . 55) > (menu-bar-lines . 1))) > > In my book suggesting the use of `setq' to set a variable contradicts > the very idea of customizing that variable. 1. Not in my book. 2. If there is a contradiction (in your book), then it is a doc problem, not a product design problem. Customizing is possible today, and it should remain so. There is no reason that users shouldn't be able to use Customize for this. Now, it is true that if you count on Customize settings for this in your init file or `custom-file', then those settings need to be loaded at an appropriate time. If you load `custom-file' at the end of your .emacs, and you have other code in your .emacs that depends on the customization of `default-frame-alist', then you've done the wrong thing. Please don't think about making things such as `default-frame-alist' non-custom variables just to fix a product problem. Please find another way around the difficulties you ran into.