From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: bug#10385: e binding in info-mode Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2012 23:02:54 -0800 Message-ID: References: <201112272237.pBRMbo8C022896@freefriends.org><62fwftxnbz.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org><83fwfsoluz.fsf@gnu.org> <871urckv7k.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <962D35497CE84D16B1B5F7AA509BFB59@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1326006201 620 80.91.229.12 (8 Jan 2012 07:03:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, eliz@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 08 08:03:17 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmme-0005Yp-Ja for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:03:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56209 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmmd-00029c-Kh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:39437) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Rjmma-00029R-Ps for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:09 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmmZ-0001Cv-RX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:08 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com ([141.146.126.227]:61878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RjmmX-0001C7-JB; Sun, 08 Jan 2012 02:03:05 -0500 Original-Received: from acsinet21.oracle.com (acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.4/Switch-3.4.4) with ESMTP id q08733Vx030465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:03 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt356.oracle.com (acsmt356.oracle.com [141.146.40.156]) by acsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q08732AF011950 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 8 Jan 2012 07:03:03 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt111.oracle.com (abhmt111.oracle.com [141.146.116.63]) by acsmt356.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id q08732Jp023045; Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:03:02 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.35.13) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 07 Jan 2012 23:03:02 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AczNx7oFMrzYGdhtSGqaw8KUpV/mYwABSoAw X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: acsinet21.oracle.com [141.146.126.237] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090201.4F093FA8.0002,ss=1,re=0.000,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 141.146.126.227 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147477 Archived-At: > Why? What if someone wants to create a small Info file > and doesn't want to bother with texinfo or doesn't have the > conversion/make tools handy? > > It is really preferable to write in Texinfo. I wouldn't argue with that. I'm sure you are right. > I don't see a reason why we should want to encourage people > to write Info files directly. Mere existence of the command `Info-edit' is hardly encouragement. Have you noticed a problem with users being too encouraged to write Info files by hand over the last 30 years? And during that time they have even had a simple, advertised key binding for `Info-edit', which binding is being removed now anyway. > Have you encountered anyone who really wanted to do so? Nope. But if I had to edit an Info node (which has not been the case so far) and I did not have texinfo, makeinfo, etc. on my laptop (which is the case), I wouldn't hesitate to do it. And note that the Info manual has a section, `Expert Info' (with 5 subsections), that describes "how to write an Info file by hand" and how to "install it manually". That suggests at least as much encouragement to write Info files by hand as does the mere existence of command `Info-edit'. The manual does not at all say or suggest that writing Info files by hand is useless. What it says, in fact, is "_in most cases_, writing a Texinfo file is better, since you can use it to make a printed manual or produce other formats, such as HTML and DocBook, as well as for generating Info files". "In most cases" is a far cry from always. And surely if it were truly useless to write Info files by hand we would not devote 6 nodes of the Info manual to explaining in detail how to do it (?). Granted, `Info-edit' is not the same as all that is discussed in the manual under the topic of writing an Info file by hand. But your question was about writing an Info file by hand, and here is a far greater encouragement than `Info-edit'. AFAICT, we seem to be saying in the Info manual that there is a use case for hand editing, even if we say that in most cases Texinfo is more useful. Both the Info manual and the lack of installed `makeinfo' for at least some users on some systems (non-development laptops? phones? tablets?) argue that hand editing is not useless.