* Participation Requested: Survey about Open-Source Software Development @ 2011-06-13 17:04 Jeffrey Carver 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carver @ 2011-06-13 17:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Hi, Drs. Jeffrey Carver, Rosanna Guadagno, Debra McCallum, and Mr. Amiangshu Bosu, University of Alabama, and Dr. Lorin Hochstein, University of Southern California, are conducting a survey of open-source software developers. This survey seeks to understand how developers on distributed, virtual teams, like open-source projects, interact with each other to accomplish their tasks. You must be at least 19 years of age to complete the survey. The survey should take approximately 15 minutes to complete. If you are actively participating as a developer, please consider completing our survey. Here is the link to the survey: http://goo.gl/HQnux We apologize for inconvenience and if you receive multiple copies of this email. This survey has been approved by The University of Alabama IRB board. Thanks, Dr. Jeffrey Carver Assistant Professor University of Alabama (v) 205-348-9829 (f) 205-348-0219 http://www.cs.ua.edu/~carver ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-13 17:04 Participation Requested: Survey about Open-Source Software Development Jeffrey Carver @ 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-13 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeffrey Carver; +Cc: emacs-devel Emacs is not intended to be open source, but rather free/libre software. We have developed it for freedom's sake, and we want people to know this. Referring to Emacs as "open source" tends to cover up our ethical values up behind a different view that only cites practical values. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html for more explanation of the difference between free software and open source. If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to give the free software movement equal mention in the study's report. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-14 16:00 ` opensourcesurvey 2011-06-14 23:48 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 4:51 ` Deniz Dogan 2011-06-15 8:26 ` Antoine Levitt 2 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-14 3:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel, Jeffrey Carver Richard Stallman writes: > If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to > give the free software movement equal mention in the study's > report. Dr. Carver, I hope that neither participation in the survey by Emacs developers, nor what you write in your academic reports will be influenced by inappropriate pressure of the sort quoted above. Nevertheless, as a social scientist myself, I hope that you will give consideration to the influence of the free software movement as such on the tools and best practices of distributed software development. While my academic work is on other topics, in over twenty years of participation in free, libre, and open source software (FLOSS) projects, my observation has been that both the *philosophy* and the *fact* of freedom in FLOSS development have strongly influenced distributed development practice. This is true of both extremes of "open" free software projects like Emacs and in "closed" commercial products (I can't be more specific about the product, but the company is Amazon.com), as well as many projects of hybrid nature. This influence has several channels, including tools, workflows, and attitudes of developers toward their work. I hope your survey is designed to capture this influence where present, and if not, I suggest you take care not to overlook it when it is present in the responses to open-ended questions. Just-one-Dismal-Scientist's-opinion-ly y'rs, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* RE: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-14 16:00 ` opensourcesurvey 2011-06-14 22:42 ` Karl Fogel 2011-06-14 23:48 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: opensourcesurvey @ 2011-06-14 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms@gnu.org; +Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, opensourcesurvey Richard, Thank you for the comments. Our apologies for not clearly differentiating the two types of software. In analyzing the results and reporting the data, we will make sure to take this into account. For you information, we have sent the survey to other projects that would fall into the category of Free Software. -- Jeff Assistant Professor University of Alabama (v) 205-348-9829 (f) 205-348-0219 http://www.cs.ua.edu/~carver -----Original Message----- From: Stephen J. Turnbull [mailto:stephen@xemacs.org] Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 10:24 PM To: rms@gnu.org Cc: opensourcesurvey; emacs-devel@gnu.org Subject: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman writes: > If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to > give the free software movement equal mention in the study's > report. Dr. Carver, I hope that neither participation in the survey by Emacs developers, nor what you write in your academic reports will be influenced by inappropriate pressure of the sort quoted above. Nevertheless, as a social scientist myself, I hope that you will give consideration to the influence of the free software movement as such on the tools and best practices of distributed software development. While my academic work is on other topics, in over twenty years of participation in free, libre, and open source software (FLOSS) projects, my observation has been that both the *philosophy* and the *fact* of freedom in FLOSS development have strongly influenced distributed development practice. This is true of both extremes of "open" free software projects like Emacs and in "closed" commercial products (I can't be more specific about the product, but the company is Amazon.com), as well as many projects of hybrid nature. This influence has several channels, including tools, workflows, and attitudes of developers toward their work. I hope your survey is designed to capture this influence where present, and if not, I suggest you take care not to overlook it when it is present in the responses to open-ended questions. Just-one-Dismal-Scientist's-opinion-ly y'rs, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-14 16:00 ` opensourcesurvey @ 2011-06-14 22:42 ` Karl Fogel 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Karl Fogel @ 2011-06-14 22:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: opensourcesurvey; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org opensourcesurvey <opensourcesurvey@cs.ua.edu> writes: >Thank you for the comments. Our apologies for not clearly >differentiating the two types of software. In analyzing the results >and reporting the data, we will make sure to take this into >account. For you information, we have sent the survey to other >projects that would fall into the category of Free Software. They are the same thing -- they are not "two types of software". Rather, there are two terms for the same type of software, and those terms each have different emphases. I realize this not necessarily obvious to those who don't live and breathe this stuff, so please don't take my comment above as any kind of criticism. I just wanted to clarify, as it might not have been clear from Richard's mail that he was differentiating between terms and (perhaps) between goals, but not between two different types of software. Best, -Karl >Assistant Professor >University of Alabama >(v) 205-348-9829 (f) 205-348-0219 >http://www.cs.ua.edu/~carver > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stephen J. Turnbull [mailto:stephen@xemacs.org] >Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 10:24 PM >To: rms@gnu.org >Cc: opensourcesurvey; emacs-devel@gnu.org >Subject: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" > >Richard Stallman writes: > > > If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to > give the free software movement equal mention in the study's > report. > >Dr. Carver, > >I hope that neither participation in the survey by Emacs developers, nor what you write in your academic reports will be influenced by inappropriate pressure of the sort quoted above. Nevertheless, as a social scientist myself, I hope that you will give consideration to the influence of the free software movement as such on the tools and best practices of distributed software development. > >While my academic work is on other topics, in over twenty years of participation in free, libre, and open source software (FLOSS) projects, my observation has been that both the *philosophy* and the >*fact* of freedom in FLOSS development have strongly influenced distributed development practice. This is true of both extremes of "open" free software projects like Emacs and in "closed" commercial products (I can't be more specific about the product, but the company is Amazon.com), as well as many projects of hybrid nature. This influence has several channels, including tools, workflows, and attitudes of developers toward their work. I hope your survey is designed to capture this influence where present, and if not, I suggest you take care not to overlook it when it is present in the responses to open-ended questions. > >Just-one-Dismal-Scientist's-opinion-ly y'rs, ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-14 22:42 ` Karl Fogel @ 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Karl Fogel; +Cc: emacs-devel, opensourcesurvey Your message is basically right, but one important point needs to be corrected. >Thank you for the comments. Our apologies for not clearly >differentiating the two types of software. In analyzing the results >and reporting the data, we will make sure to take this into >account. For you information, we have sent the survey to other >projects that would fall into the category of Free Software. They are the same thing As sets of software, free software and open source mostly overlap, but they are not the same set. Nearly all open source programs are free software, but exceptions do exist, because some open source licenses do not qualify as free. In addition, when an executable is locked down by hardware so that users cannot install their own version, it is not free. Thus, the executable of Linux in most Android phones is not free, even though its source code is free. Open source does not concern itself with this issue. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-14 16:00 ` opensourcesurvey @ 2011-06-14 23:48 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-14 23:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel, opensourcesurvey GNU Emacs is part of the GNU Project, a project with the goal of liberating the users from proprietary software. That's a free software goal which the discourse of "open source" does not recognize. So it is very important for us to insist on recognition for our movement. People who would like our cooperation in their activities should recognize who we are. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-14 23:48 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-15 4:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel Deliberately removing opensourcesurveys. Richard Stallman writes: > GNU Emacs is part of the GNU Project, a project with the goal of > liberating the users from proprietary software. The problem you face, of course, is that "the users" are already free to choose to use free software for almost all purposes, but they stubbornly refuse to do so. Instead, they by and large *choose* proprietary software. I understand your frustration with that simple fact, but that frustration doesn't give you a license to put pressure on outsiders or to tell project members who they may or may not cooperate with. > That's a free software goal which the discourse of "open source" > does not recognize. That's at best nonsense. Even your bete noir Eric Raymond in private espouses the spread of software freedom as such as the main goal motivating his behavior -- he's not interested in improving business profits, particularly, though he doesn't oppose that. Certainly the OSI avoids talking about "freedom" in the presence of limited dictatorships (aka "corporate IT organizations") in hopes of getting them to consent to freedom under the guise of efficiency. But I personally don't like that pragmatism, and that is true of *most* of my acquaintances who style themselves "open source advocates". We openly advocate both freedom for users and developers, and efficiency and quality for businesses. The discourse of open source does admit the goal of liberation; it's just not the single overriding goal. > So it is very important for us to insist on recognition for our > movement. No question about that, even given the preceding caveat. The public face of open source (eg, the OSI), indeed does deliberately downplay freedom. My beef, on *this* list, is with your *phrasing* only. > People who would like our cooperation in their activities should > recognize who we are. Nor that, as stated. There is a certain moral obligation on them. But even for your own purposes, I think telling the Emacs developers not to participate in the survey unless the researchers agree to bias their report (by academic standards, of course by your purely movement-centric standard it's a removal of bias) is a tactical mistake. First, there's a good chance that no *movements* at all were going to be mentioned in the report. What good does "equal time" do you then? You want *special* treatment. Why not ask for it, politely? The movement deserves it; everybody acknowledges that without the free software movement, free software (according to the definitions, equally validly called "open source software") would almost surely be far less widespread. And, as in this case, you'll probably get it, but without appearing to apply any undue pressure. I believe there is similar acknowledgment of the contribution of the free software movement to the technologies associated with distributed development, many of which have been most actively developed and used in free software projects (which wouldn't exist without the movement). And *that* is a real hook for the academic researcher, as I explained. Second, telling academics what to include in their reports doesn't work and is likely to backfire. Dr. Carver was very polite, but at this stage talk is cheap. I'm sure the researchers will follow through in their working paper, but what about the published versions? Eg, in industrial organization economics at least, the usual term is now "open source", not "free", and if a referee suggests using the more common term, with maybe a footnote for the movement, so much for good intentions. And even the footnote may disappear later under page-count pressure. Don't you think explaining *why* the movement is important to the history and current practice of distributed development will be more effective in the long term than a basically empty threat? Third, if the Emacs developers (and other members of the free software movement) actually do refuse to participate at your behest, the results *will* be biased against the free software point of view, both as seen by the political movement, and in the terms of academia. This is the worst possible outcome from your point of view, it seems to me. Fourth, it's going to piss off a few Emacs developers, who didn't realize that their right to freedom of association was subject to your political needs. You don't need *any* of that, do you? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 10:51 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-15 16:55 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-15 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > Deliberately removing opensourcesurveys. > > Richard Stallman writes: > > > GNU Emacs is part of the GNU Project, a project with the goal of > > liberating the users from proprietary software. > > The problem you face, of course, is that "the users" are already free > to choose to use free software for almost all purposes, but they > stubbornly refuse to do so. Instead, they by and large *choose* > proprietary software. I understand your frustration with that simple > fact, but that frustration doesn't give you a license to put pressure > on outsiders or to tell project members who they may or may not > cooperate with. I think you misunderstand the goal of free software. The whole point is to give people the power of choice. Choosing to cripple themselves is a valid choice. You can try making it harder to get stuck in a bad choice without return, and you can educate them about the consequences of their choice. But you can't take their choice. Should it be legal to sell yourself into slavery? There are some choices you can take that effectively become indistinguishable from this result, often through economic realities. Education can help finding a way out from such predicaments. Free software offers a message of empowerment. It is important that people know about this message, in order not to be bereft of choice. > > That's a free software goal which the discourse of "open source" > > does not recognize. > > That's at best nonsense. Even your bete noir Eric Raymond in private > espouses the spread of software freedom as such as the main goal > motivating his behavior -- he's not interested in improving business > profits, particularly, though he doesn't oppose that. Certainly the > OSI avoids talking about "freedom" in the presence of limited > dictatorships (aka "corporate IT organizations") in hopes of getting > them to consent to freedom under the guise of efficiency. That's like convincing GDR citizens of the virtues of a Western style democracy by pointing out the availability of bananas on store shelves. It worked, but is nothing to be particularly proud of. In particular since the economic viability of the banana availability depends on dictatorships, both outright as well as economical, elsewhere. You'll always find somebody willing to advertise some positive sideeffects under whatever label. But sideeffects, which have the advantage of being actual tangible goods in contrast to ideals, tend to fluctuate wildly. The horse is what is pulling the carriage, but if you let the horse decide where the carriage is to go, it will not be able to feed itself. We have a lot of open source projects _failing_ or ailing in commercial surroundings, when measured with commercial metrics. That is because our economy is _tuned_ towards proprietariness. This is a failure of the economy, not of free software. It is a sign of hope that free software can hold its stand in a hostile environment, but that does not make an environment hostile to freedom of software users a good idea. The message of the "Open Source philosophers" is that free software failed to achieve its goals, and that Open Source is the way out. They don't understand why the FSF is still around, why people still support its projects, and why Open Source projects fail and get bought out. They leave free software in their wake, and that is good. And some of that free software would not have come into being without them. But making a road takes more than having generous haphazards splashings of asphalt everywhere, even though the splashings may actually be turned into something useful. > But I personally don't like that pragmatism, and that is true of > *most* of my acquaintances who style themselves "open source > advocates". We openly advocate both freedom for users and developers, > and efficiency and quality for businesses. The discourse of open > source does admit the goal of liberation; it's just not the single > overriding goal. If you want to get to warmer pastures on the Northern hemisphere, the most efficient way is to go is South. Straight. Yes, it will work to follow the sun whenever it is visible, actually quite great when you are quite near to the start of your journey. But the farther you get, the more wasteful your path gets with regard to your goal. Running after software maintainability and development models will yield increasingly more erratic results the more free software becomes part of the available toolset. > I believe there is similar acknowledgment of the contribution of the > free software movement to the technologies associated with distributed > development, many of which have been most actively developed and used > in free software projects (which wouldn't exist without the movement). > And *that* is a real hook for the academic researcher, as I explained. The point of freedom is not be a better hook. In practice, that often turns out to be the way how freedom propagates, but it is actually a pity to trade it as a marketable good. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-15 10:51 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-15 11:00 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 16:55 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-15 10:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:14, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: > > I think you misunderstand the goal of free software. The whole point is > to give people the power of choice. The point of free software is not a stable thing. It is not the same today as in the beginning. It is defined both by the beginning and the road. The road is shaped quite a lot of those on it. Some of us would perhaps say "give people ability" as an equal important goal. Those goals are not the same. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 10:51 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-15 11:00 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-15 11:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:14, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote: >> >> I think you misunderstand the goal of free software. The whole point is >> to give people the power of choice. > > The point of free software is not a stable thing. It depends on whether you are talking about software that happens to end up as free, or software that has been conceived in the course of the free software movement as initiated by the Free Software Foundation. The whole point of freedom is that it gives room for different motivations. But that does not make it a conglomerate of the different motivations it admits. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 10:51 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-15 16:55 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-15 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel David Kastrup writes: > I think you misunderstand the goal of free software. I don't think so, but I think you have misunderstood much of what I argued. This is definitely not the forum for that discussion, though. > Running after software maintainability and development models will > yield increasingly more erratic results the more free software > becomes part of the available toolset. I don't understand. My personal belief is that use of more free software is inducing certain changes in practice that will yield increasing reliability. > The point of freedom is not be a better hook. In practice, that often > turns out to be the way how freedom propagates, but it is actually a > pity to trade it as a marketable good. That is exactly my complaint about Richard's post, a point you evidently missed. He tried to trade for something that was very likely available for the asking, and *should* be available for the asking, for several reasons. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 19:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 0:54 ` Chong Yidong 3 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel assert(advocacy != tyranny) Much of your argument seems to be focussed on what Dr. Carver would do. You would have a stronger argument if Dr. Carver *actually* ended up relegating the emphasis on "Free Software" to the margins. This fact can be verified only after the publication of the results and if the report is made publicly accessible. From what I see, Richard's polite and assertive refusal strongly influenced Dr. Carver in to recognizing or atleast understanding the subtle difference between "Free Software" and "Open Source". Richard as a the "original owner" Emacs of the the moral authority to assert and advice non-cooperation from like-minded friends and it may not include you. Btw, I am sure you would have read JS Mill's arguments On Liberty and Utilitarianism. I will always buy the argument that Liberty (that includes Liberty to make mistakes and Liberty to give shape to one's passions - contrary to accepted societal norms) always results in increasing the "sum total of overall goodness" than the true "Utilitarianism" will ever manage to accomplish. Only that path of Liberty is not for the fickle minded. Much of the world is mistaken in to thinking that Utilitarianism and Liberty are one and the same. I can only say that it is merely a black magic. ps: I am trying to understand where all this hatred to Richard's advocacy comes from. Atleast in emacs-devel it sounds like an outright civil war. Had this been a list which doesn't understand what Liberty is, your mails (which I find is always confrontational) would end up being filtered right at the point of distribution. Sorry if I am provoking you. Jambunathan K. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 12:52 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-15 19:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-06-15 11:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms, emacs-devel On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 13:41, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: > ps: I am trying to understand where all this hatred to Richard's > advocacy comes from. Atleast in emacs-devel it sounds like an outright > civil war. I don't think there's any hatred to Richard's advocacy. But at the moment he talks of "our collaboration" he's making the mistake of believing that everyone who collaborates in free software does so motivated by the goals of the free software movement. It's quite possible to collaborate with Emacs (for example) just because you want a better Emacs for your own selfish reasons. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-06-15 12:52 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 13:19 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms, emacs-devel Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 13:41, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: > >> ps: I am trying to understand where all this hatred to Richard's >> advocacy comes from. Atleast in emacs-devel it sounds like an outright >> civil war. > > I don't think there's any hatred to Richard's advocacy. Ok. > But at the moment he talks of "our collaboration" he's making the > mistake of believing that Instead of saying "making the mistake" I would have rather used "he is hoping that his arguments and position are (atleast) being heard and considered. How can any person listen when he is talking?". > everyone who collaborates in free software does so motivated by the > goals of the free software movement. > It's quite possible to collaborate with Emacs (for example) just > because you want a better Emacs for your own selfish reasons. I will take it from others and make it better for my own self ===> Selfishness I will take it from others, make it better and pay it forward ===> !Selfishness. The latter position transcends Selfishness and is a pragmatic stand favoring Sustainability. The Devil wants everything free. But once it jumps in to the GPL bandwagon, it is as though the devil has surrendered itself to be baptized. Btw, Many of the Buddhist meditation centers operate on the "pay it forward" model and have sustained themselves for thousands of years. We may not agree with or follow Richard's idealistic view but that doesn't mean that we should argue against him. Let's support his position in the little way we can and show the naysayers their place. That's all I want to say. Let me summarize. Juanma, you and I are not only selfish but we have "paid it forward". That makes us "not selfish". Jambunathan K. > > Juanma > > -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 12:52 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 13:19 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 13:26 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 14:06 ` Andreas Röhler 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms, emacs-devel >> It's quite possible to collaborate with Emacs (for example) just >> because you want a better Emacs for your own selfish reasons. I would like to add few more lines. Let us (by us, we mean all Emacs users) understand that we have benefited from (or rather exploited) a good man's largesse. Let us also understand that we have nothing to fear that the goodness we have come to treasure and enjoy would continue to be available and wouldn't be ever taken away in to manipulating us. Let's accept our pettiness. Let's express our solidarity and gratitude to Richard by tolerating what "we perceive as mistakes" and be kind enough to overlook them. Jambunathan K. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 13:19 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 13:26 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 14:06 ` Andreas Röhler 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-06-15 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero, Stephen J. Turnbull, rms, emacs-devel On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 15:19, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: > Let's express our solidarity and gratitude to Richard by tolerating what > "we perceive as mistakes" and be kind enough to overlook them. Amen to that. Though, I'll add, my comment about Richard's "mistake" was neither a complain nor a critique, just my personal explanation of his "our collaboration" comment. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 13:19 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 13:26 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-06-15 14:06 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-15 15:23 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-15 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > > Let's express our solidarity and gratitude to Richard by tolerating what > "we perceive as mistakes" and be kind enough to overlook them. > > Jambunathan K. > As far as personality is at stake, I agree. Beside it's worth to reflect that position with respect to the fate of earlier liberation movements. We must not repeat mistakes, if we may remember the outcome already. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 14:06 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-15 15:23 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-15 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andreas Röhler; +Cc: emacs-devel On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 16:06, Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> wrote: > >> >> Let's express our solidarity and gratitude to Richard by tolerating what >> "we perceive as mistakes" and be kind enough to overlook them. >> >> Jambunathan K. >> > > As far as personality is at stake, I agree. > > Beside it's worth to reflect that position with respect to the fate of > earlier liberation movements. > > We must not repeat mistakes, if we may remember the outcome already. We are never, have never been and will never be, in a position where we can avoid mistakes. We are just limited humans hopefully trying do to our best towards others. So it kind of seems best to tolerate the mistakes and learn... ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 12:52 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: stephen, emacs-devel I don't think there's any hatred to Richard's advocacy. But at the moment he talks of "our collaboration" he's making the mistake of believing that everyone who collaborates in free software does so motivated by the goals of the free software movement. It's quite possible to collaborate with Emacs (for example) just because you want a better Emacs for your own selfish reasons. People are welcome to contribute to GNU Emacs for personal motives. (They also have the right not to contribute, for personal motives.) However, those personal motives, whatever they may be, do not alter the goal of GNU Emacs as a project. Freedom for users is that goal. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-06-15 19:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-15 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel Jambunathan K writes: > From what I see, Richard's polite and assertive refusal strongly > influenced Dr. Carver in to recognizing or atleast understanding > the subtle difference between "Free Software" and "Open Source". I see no evidence in the thread for that conclusion, or against it for that matter. I have, however, conducted survey research and I assure you that I would have responded quite as Dr. Carver did, no matter what I believed or learned. It pays to be polite, and it's satisfying to correct one's mistakes, even if inadvertant. IOW, a simple request would have been equally effective, I believe. > ps: I am trying to understand where all this hatred to Richard's > advocacy comes from. Hatred for his advocacy, no. I just believe in software freedom, and I think Richard's us vs. them posting style is counterproductive and mostly repels people who would otherwise be interested to learn more. I realize it's a losing battle and in recent years have been better at saying nothing, but this particular time I discovered a desire to encourage this survey, and spoke up. Personal antagonism, yes. I'm sorry it shows. I'm not a very nice person in my mailing-list persona, which has a lot to do with it. Let's leave it at that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 4:22 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 0:54 ` Chong Yidong 3 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 23:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel The problem you face, of course, is that "the users" are already free to choose to use free software for almost all purposes, but they stubbornly refuse to do so. There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open source". If it contributes to free programs, it does so while ignoring or even opposing the idea that users shouldd to demand freedom. So we find that many users who have heard of "open source" but never heard anyone argue for choosing programs according to their respect for freedom. This is why we need to work and push so that the free software movement does not get hidden behind "open source." When people want our cooperation, I insist they recognize the free software movement's existence. I do this over and over, and as a result, a substantial fraction of our users have at least heard of the free software movement. Even your bete noir Eric Raymond in private espouses the spread of software freedom as such as the main goal motivating his behavior That is not what he told me. In any case, his public statements disparage the idea of software freedom, and that's where the effects come from. There are thousands of people in our community that publicly denigrate the goal of freedom. All that adds up to the obstacle we need to surmount in order to teach users to want freedom. First, there's a good chance that no *movements* at all were going to be mentioned in the report. "Open source" was going to be mentioned, so we want "free software" to be mentioned too. Third, if the Emacs developers (and other members of the free software movement) actually do refuse to participate at your behest, the results *will* be biased against the free software point of view, They will inevitably be biased, because the bias comes in with the choice of questions. It was reported here that they are only about practical matters and totally ignore the ethical level. If all you know about is a hammer, your survey will only count nails. Fourth, it's going to piss off a few Emacs developers, who didn't realize that their right to freedom of association was subject to your political needs. I trust that all the GNU Emacs developers understood that speaking as the head of the GNU Project does not mean I claim any power over any individual. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 4:22 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:10 ` Paul Eggert 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 4:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > "Open source" was going to be mentioned, so we want "free software" to > be mentioned too. Incidentally, what's your opinion of the somewhat common term "FOSS" -- "Free and Open-Source Software"? Thanks, -Miles -- "Nah, there's no bigger atheist than me. Well, I take that back. I'm a cancer screening away from going agnostic and a biopsy away from full-fledged Christian." [Adam Carolla] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 4:22 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 5:10 ` Paul Eggert 2011-06-16 5:19 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2011-06-16 5:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On 06/15/11 21:22, Miles Bader wrote: > what's your opinion of the somewhat common term "FOSS" -- > "Free and Open-Source Software"? The acronyn "FLOSS" (for "Free/Libre and Open Source Software Development") is also common among academic researchers studying the field. There are dozens (maybe hundreds) of refereed papers published on the topic. Presumably Carver et al. want to add to this list, and I expect their papers will do a good job covering free/libre software, now that they have a heads-up from RMS. For recent and potential future work in this booming area of academia, please see: Krowston K, Wei K, Howison J, Wiggins A. Free/Libre Open Source Software development: what we know and what we do not know. ACM Computing Surveys 2010 <http://flossplanet.info/system/files/CrowstonFLOSSReviewPaperPreprint.pdf> Scacchi W. The future of research in free/open source software development. Proc FoSER '10 <http://www.ics.uci.edu/~wscacchi/Papers/New/FoSER-Scacchi-2010.pdf> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 5:10 ` Paul Eggert @ 2011-06-16 5:19 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 16:59 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes: > The acronyn "FLOSS" (for "Free/Libre and Open Source Software > Development") is also common among academic researchers > studying the field. Of course that has the disadvantage of yielding mostly hits for dental hygiene products when one googles... :] -Miles -- gravity a demanding master ... soft soft snow ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 5:19 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 16:59 ` Randal L. Schwartz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Randal L. Schwartz @ 2011-06-16 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel >>>>> "Miles" == Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: Miles> Of course that has the disadvantage of yielding mostly hits for dental Miles> hygiene products when one googles... :] Indeed. One New York Dental Group automatically retweets nearly every tweet I make about my "FLOSS Weekly" podcast. {chuckle} -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 5:10 ` Paul Eggert 2011-06-16 5:19 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-18 1:02 ` Miles Bader 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel FLOSS, for "Free/libre and open source software", is a reasonable term to use to talk about both the free software movement and the open source camp. A good treatment will also state what each of the two camps stands for, since most readers are misinformed about both. FOSS puts us at a disadvantage because "open source" is more visible than "free software". Adding "/libre" balances that out. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-18 1:02 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-18 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Paul Eggert, emacs-devel Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > FLOSS, for "Free/libre and open source software", is a reasonable term > to use to talk about both the free software movement and the open > source camp. A good treatment will also state what each of the two > camps stands for, since most readers are misinformed about both. > > FOSS puts us at a disadvantage because "open source" is more visible > than "free software". Adding "/libre" balances that out. Hmm, I'm not sure I get the "more visible" part -- "free" is the very first thing in the FOSS acronym, it always seemed to me like a not-so-subtle way of saying "free software and oh yeah, that other thing, open source"... FOSS and FLOSS both "feel" about the same to me. I like adding libre since it's a nice evocative word, so it seems kind of a shame that "FLOSS" also has the potentially confusing mundane meaning as word ... hMmm ... "Proprietary software making your mouth feel dirty? Always remember to FLOSS!" :] -miles -- You can hack anything you want, with TECO and DDT. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 4:22 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 16:41 ` Stephen J. Turnbull ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-16 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel Richard Stallman writes: > The problem you face, of course, is that "the users" are already free > to choose to use free software for almost all purposes, but they > stubbornly refuse to do so. > > There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open > source". That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our community". That is a welcome change! > If it contributes to free programs, it does so while ignoring or > even opposing the idea that users should to demand freedom. This is not true of those who label themselves "open source" advocates who I personally mingle with. For them, "open source" is simply "free software" that does not require advocacy of software freedom as the overriding goal, but rather admits many goals (including software freedom as such) in various mixtures of importance. But people who deprecate software freedom would definitely be uncomfortable with most of them. > This is why we need to work and push so that the free software > movement does not get hidden behind "open source." I acknowledge that, in this thread as well. But there's a difference between "pushing" and "being pushy". > Even your bete noir Eric Raymond in private > espouses the spread of software freedom as such as the main goal > motivating his behavior > > That is not what he told me. What did he tell you? Perhaps that his goal is the spread of free software? > In any case, his public statements disparage the idea of software > freedom, and that's where the effects come from. There are > thousands of people in our community that publicly denigrate the > goal of freedom. All that adds up to the obstacle we need to > surmount in order to teach users to want freedom. That would be very nice, but I think it's unrealistic to suppose that "opinion leaders" are moving all that opinion. There are objective factors that are more important. IMO, the biggest obstacle is that (as far as most people are concerned) you've already won. That is, with the success of GNU/Linux, there is a viable option for those who want to Just Say No. This is a real freedom, although it is not the software freedom the movement is aimed at. And for most people, it's plenty. You can say (more politely, of course), "People! Wake up! You're missing the point!" But it's not easy to rebut the response, "no, you're missing our point -- we've got what we need!" > They will inevitably be biased, because the bias comes in with the > choice of questions. It was reported here that they are only about > practical matters and totally ignore the ethical level. > > If all you know about is a hammer, your survey will only count nails. Sure. But that's not bias in the scientific sense, that's focus. Research done on the ethics would be a different project, and (from the researcher's and granting agency's point of view) needs its own funding. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-16 16:41 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 12:06 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-16 16:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms, emacs-devel Stephen J. Turnbull writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > > There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open > > source". > > That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our > community". That is a welcome change! Excuse me. I meant to write "refer to anything associated with open source as part of 'our community'". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 16:41 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-19 19:51 ` dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-17 12:06 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-16 17:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > Richard Stallman writes: > > The problem you face, of course, is that "the users" are already free > > to choose to use free software for almost all purposes, but they > > stubbornly refuse to do so. > > > > There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open > > source". > > That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our > community". That is a welcome change! RMS is not "most of our community", and most particularly not that part of our community with bad labelling habits. > This is not true of those who label themselves "open source" advocates > who I personally mingle with. For them, "open source" is simply "free > software" that does not require advocacy of software freedom as the > overriding goal, but rather admits many goals (including software > freedom as such) in various mixtures of importance. Appreciating the benefits of freedom is not a substitute for appreciating freedom, it is a _reason_ for appreciating freedom. The benefits are tangible, freedom isn't. The side effects of a philosophy are no substitute for the philosophy. The usual mantra for Open Source is "I like Open Source because it leads to software with fewer bugs/more features." If the metric is software with fewer bugs, then it would be logical to use proprietary software as long as it has fewer bugs/more features. One can take a look at involved developers and available manhours and other resources on a timeline and decide "given the available information, the free version of this software will not have fewer bugs/more features in the next ten years. So I won't use it or contribute to it." That's a valid stance, but not really worth labelling as a philosophy, because it is reactive, not proactive. Adopting it does not change anything. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 10:16 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-19 19:51 ` dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now Randal L. Schwartz 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-17 6:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel Executive summary: I do not advocate changing the free software movement's message. I advocate knowing your audience, and tuning the presentation of the message to the audience you are facing at any given time. David Kastrup writes: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: >> That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our >> community". That is a welcome change! [N.B. I corrected myself later; "our community" cannot be taken to refer to all of the open source community, as implied by the phrasing above. David is not responsible for any misunderstanding my poor phrasing may have caused, but I'm going to respond to his words as written.] > RMS is not "most of our community", and most particularly not that part > of our community with bad labelling habits. You're missing the point, which is that of all human beings not currently in the free software movement, the most likely-to-join group is probably the open source community. Sure, some are openly anti- free-software-movement, but most are not. By injecting the free software movement into that community, the goals and programs of the movement get wider, more personal, and IMO more persuasive dissemination. > > This is not true of those who label themselves "open source" advocates > > who I personally mingle with. For them, "open source" is simply "free > > software" that does not require advocacy of software freedom as the > > overriding goal, but rather admits many goals (including software > > freedom as such) in various mixtures of importance. > > Appreciating the benefits of freedom is not a substitute for > appreciating freedom, it is a _reason_ for appreciating freedom. The > benefits are tangible, freedom isn't. What don't you understand about "software freedom as such"? If what you mean is, "Give me software freedom, or give me death!", OK, but the basic fact of life in any group larger than one is that there are many rights, they conflict, and not everybody is going to agree with that unidimensional philosophy as a solution. There is a group in society (a subset of "hackers") for whom your unidimensional philosophy is very attractive. For most people, it is not, because software freedom is not on their radar; software itself is only barely perceived, in the form of "hardware upgradable by internet".[1] It greatly differs from the rights of the U.S.[2] Declaration of Independence (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness) -- these are universally desired (for oneself, anyway :-( ). It also differs from the freedoms of the U.S. Bill of Rights (speech, association, etc). While not actually valued by *everybody*, a large minority will insist on them because they are the essential foundation of democratic politics, which is one (perhaps the only known) way to reliably[3] achieve legitimate government, which is the only reliable way known to protect individual rights and freedoms (though also known to be reliably imperfect). This is a serious philosophical problem for the movement. The movement's propaganda equates "software freedom" with "freedom of speech", but in fact they belong to different classes. > The usual mantra for Open Source is "I like Open Source because it > leads to software with fewer bugs/more features." That's only part of it. "Avoids lock-in" is an essential part of the mantra, and avoiding lock-in (in a general sense, including permitting do-it-yourself improvements, which is what open source means by "avoids lock-in") is close to "software freedom as such", once you unpack the requirements for "do-it-yourself improvements". (What's missing is the right to redistribute, of course.) And of course this assumes that we concede to RMS the right to define "software freedom". Many of my friends do not, and use less stringent definitions (ie, not requiring redistributability). It is fair for you to complain that this is not "true" software freedom, but that misses the point. These folks are "almost there"! It seems likely to me that they are fairly easy to persuade to accept the full definition. (And of course the formal definition of "open source" is pretty much indistinguishable from "free", although as Richard pointed out earlier the OSI and the FSF have disgreed on the applicability to certain licenses.) Please stop merely repeating the FSF propaganda about open source, and deal with the phenomenon as it is: diverse. You cannot win the hearts of my friends otherwise. So, is there anything that you still don't understand about "that is not true of those whom I personally mingle with"? > If the metric is software with fewer bugs, For the group I am talking about, for a non-negligible minority the metric is availability of free software with required capabilities[4], defined as "I can download it or build it myself[5], perhaps based on an existing project." For a larger, quite substantial, minority, the caveat "and a specific product is not required by my employer and/or clients" is added. What you have written is considered a mortal insult by the group I am talking about. Do you really want to offend them? They don't need a wake-up call. They know what the issue is, they just currently disagree with the free software movement's stance. It seems to me that this group would be easily swayed by experiencing adversity imposed by proprietary software, or possibly well-targeted persuasion by the movement. > ["I want software with fewer bugs and will use, maybe contribute > to, software that gives me that" is] a valid stance, but not really > worth labelling as a philosophy, Of course it's a philosophy, and worth labelling as such. It's very generally applicable, and it's called "(individual) utilitarianism" or "economism" and similar. However, I don't know anybody who actually adheres to it outside of Ayn Rand novels, and I'm not sure any more that even John Galt really did. Footnotes: [1] At least here in Japan, people talk about "turning on the Internet" in lieu of "turning on the PC and connecting to the 'Net". [2] This is what I am familiar with; I am not going to pretend to know about any further rights and freedoms that other cultures may insist upon, although I acknowledge the near certainty that my list is incomplete. [3] Though few engineers would recognize a 75% or so success rate as "reliable". :-) [4] This is not a loophole for minor "nice features". An example requirement would be "httpd *that does SSL*." YMMV, but people I know are pretty strict about this. [5] For many this is a null set. They're web designers, etc, and can't build software at all outside of Javascript and CSS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-18 11:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-17 10:16 ` Jambunathan K 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > You're missing the point, which is that of all human beings not > currently in the free software movement, the most likely-to-join group > is probably the open source community. If the free software movement masks itself as the open source community, that group has nowhere to go. > Sure, some are openly anti-free-software-movement, but most are not. > By injecting the free software movement into that community, the goals > and programs of the movement get wider, more personal, and IMO more > persuasive dissemination. But there is no point for the free software movement to inject the open source movement into the open source community. Open source is the attempt to turn free software into good business sense. But our economy is built around ways for restraining cooperation and selling limited access to it. The vast majority of open source endeavours end up as failures according to their own metrics. Creating free software is rarely good business sense, harvesting it may be. The GPL creates a niche where creating/extending a bit of free software in return for harvesting a lot may make business sense. Because business will only cooperate at gunpoint. Gunpoint makes for limited ecosystems, but it does not make anybody believe in any values. But business only believes in shareholder value, anyway. Since the economy is built around taxing any flow of cooperation and knowledge, free software, which is designed to be impervious to damming, is bound to fail as a business model component in a lot of settings. The Open Source movement counts this as a deficiency of the software, the Free Software movement counts this as a deficiency of the system. Selling the motives behind Free Software off as something different may lead to short-lived enthusiasm but will ultimately end in disappointment and disillusionment. The GPL is the consequence of such disillusionment. There is no point in restarting the cycle. > If what you mean is, "Give me software freedom, or give me death!", "or I will create it myself." is the actual credo of the free software movement. "or something else." that of the open source movement since they focus on secondary concerns. > OK, but the basic fact of life in any group larger than one is that > there are many rights, they conflict, and not everybody is going to > agree with that unidimensional philosophy as a solution. That's not a problem of the philosophy. If your cake is frequently too salty, do you try to fix this by diluting the salt in the cupboard with sugar in order to be able to continue using the same recipe? > Please stop merely repeating the FSF propaganda about open source, and > deal with the phenomenon as it is: diverse. You cannot win the hearts > of my friends otherwise. Why win their hearts with false pretense? One won't be able to keep them that way. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 20:56 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Jambunathan K 2011-06-18 11:36 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-17 10:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel David Kastrup writes: > "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > > > You're missing the point, which is that of all human beings not > > currently in the free software movement, the most likely-to-join group > > is probably the open source community. > > If the free software movement masks itself as the open source community, > that group has nowhere to go. Are you *deliberately* missing the point? Please reread the Executive Summary, and note that self-labeling is *part of the message*. > Because business will only cooperate at gunpoint. Nonsense. Business is all about cooperation, especially about organizing cooperation between parties who never meet, but nevertheless need to exchange value indirectly. It is true that some businesses are enforced at gunpoint (the telephone company, in many countries), and others are enabled by gunpoint (any business based on licensing copyrights or patents as a salient example). But the actual conduct of even those businesses is cooperative in all cases, because it's voluntary trade. That doesn't mean you have to like cooperating with a given business, or that you wouldn't prefer a different share of surplus value (more to yourself, less to the business). Nonetheless, it *is* cooperation. > But business only believes in shareholder value, anyway. Of course not. Any viable business believes in customer value. Even franchised monopolies do. It is true that a good business aims primarily at increasing shareholder value in most advanced countries (Japan is a prominent exception). Nevertheless, businesses know that if they do not produce customer value, they will die, extracting no shareholder value. > Since the economy is built around taxing any flow of cooperation > and knowledge, free software, which is designed to be impervious to > damming, is bound to fail as a business model component in a lot of > settings. Your phrasing is disagreeable, but accurate enough for the particular case. Indeed, free software is primarily about enabling face-to-face cooperation, it sucks at protecting value of third party businesses, and therefore is able to capture only bilateral value for its participants in many cases. For this reason, free software often (not always, perhaps only a minority of cases) leaves most of the latent value, which is due to indirect cooperation, lying on the sidewalk. But free software is not about value, it's about freedom. So we don't care about that. Right? > The Open Source movement counts this as a deficiency of the software, > the Free Software movement counts this as a deficiency of the system. I agree with your characterization of the free software movement, and frankly, the free software movement needs to get a clue. Sorry. The current system using artificial property rights in software sucks, and the one that free software aims at is IM nonprofessional O is clearly better. That's why I support the free software movement although I'm not a member. But wearing my economics professor hat, I have to say that the free software movement's economics gets an F. > > If what you mean is, "Give me software freedom, or give me death!", > > "or I will create it myself." is the actual credo of the free software > movement. Of course it's not. You cannot create a social system yourself; you must get the participation of others. But imposing a social system on people who don't want it is abhorrent to freedom lovers. The question is whether the value of full software freedom is so high that you would give up anything that is merely economic value for it, or whether there can be "enough" software freedom in a mixed system. The rhetoric of the free software movement, especially when trash- talking open source, is that the value of software freedom is *that* high. No mixed system will do. No? > > OK, but the basic fact of life in any group larger than one is that > > there are many rights, they conflict, and not everybody is going to > > agree with that unidimensional philosophy as a solution. > > That's not a problem of the philosophy. Unidimensionality is a fundamental problem in any social philosophy, at least if it wants to get broad enough acceptance to get implemented in a democracy. > > Please stop merely repeating the FSF propaganda about open source, and > > deal with the phenomenon as it is: diverse. You cannot win the hearts > > of my friends otherwise. > > Why win their hearts with false pretense? One won't be able to keep > them that way. You're the one talking about false pretenses. "Presentation" does not mean lying or hiding one's true intent. It means talking about your ideas in terms that others understand. In the case of my circle, you *can* talk about free software and have them understand that this connotes a movement. You *can* use the usual terms of discourse used in the free software movement and they will understand them. They just don't yet agree with the program. They may never consider it ideal, but come to support it with minor philosophical reservations. And yes, by "program" I do mean "elimination of artificial property rights of all kinds in software". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 20:13 ` Andreas Röhler ` (2 more replies) 2011-06-17 20:56 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Jambunathan K 1 sibling, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > David Kastrup writes: > > > Why win their hearts with false pretense? One won't be able to keep > > them that way. > > You're the one talking about false pretenses. "Presentation" does not > mean lying or hiding one's true intent. It means talking about your > ideas in terms that others understand. Creating free software sucks as a business model because access to it is by its nature not constrainable. Any non-trivial companies working in that area are working as a) creating software on demand where the customer does not care about the license. This is not "free software", but rather "I don't care about the license" software business. b) creating distributions of free software and selling copies. Business in that area is heading South in the age of the internet and DVD burners. And the competition are mass copying services that are license agnostic. c) trying to make a service model around free software. Again, this is not license specific, except that small-fry businessmen have a chance, when highly skilled, to actually look at source code and do before-the-time patches. Big-fry businesses get access to source code anyway. About the only company holding its own after going public is RedHat, and their servicing and distribution terms for the commercial offerings are way out of the free software philosophy. And they were free software from the start. Every major company/project that _became_ free software or centered around its business went down. StarOffice went into Sun, became OpenOffice (and Sun tried to make SunOS Open Source as well) and went down with Sun. SuSE was taken on by Novell, and Novell went down. Symbian became Open Source, and went down within a year, while Qt apparently remains Open Source even though its developers were acquired by Nokia. But Nokia switches to Windows and sold off Qt licensing business. And so on. While the companies crash and burn, they leave behind free software, but without a developer base and ongoing commitment. Beyond a certain complexity, having the source code in your hand without the brains behind it does not help. FLOSS software rates awful under the metrics that the Open Source movement is interested in. Those are not the metrics that the free software movement was interested in, or it would not have started in the first place. > In the case of my circle, you *can* talk about free software and have > them understand that this connotes a movement. You *can* use the > usual terms of discourse used in the free software movement and they > will understand them. > > They just don't yet agree with the program. They may never consider > it ideal, but come to support it with minor philosophical > reservations. And yes, by "program" I do mean "elimination of > artificial property rights of all kinds in software". Nobody including myself agrees with Richard except, sadly, reality. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 20:13 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-17 20:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-19 14:33 ` Yet another generic "free" vs. "open source" thread Stephen J. Turnbull 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-17 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > > Every major company/project that _became_ free software or centered > around its business went down. StarOffice went into Sun, became > OpenOffice (and Sun tried to make SunOS Open Source as well) and went > down with Sun. SuSE was taken on by Novell, and Novell went down. > Symbian became Open Source, and went down within a year, while Qt > apparently remains Open Source even though its developers were acquired > by Nokia. But Nokia switches to Windows and sold off Qt licensing > business. > All these companies have been in decline when starting FLOSS. Maybe in an essay of sourcing unpayed labor. Let's see how Oracle behaves. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 20:13 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-17 20:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 20:59 ` Glenn Morris 2011-06-19 14:33 ` Yet another generic "free" vs. "open source" thread Stephen J. Turnbull 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull, David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: > "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > >> David Kastrup writes: >> >> > Why win their hearts with false pretense? One won't be able to keep >> > them that way. >> >> You're the one talking about false pretenses. "Presentation" does not >> mean lying or hiding one's true intent. It means talking about your >> ideas in terms that others understand. > > Creating free software sucks as a business model because access to it is > by its nature not constrainable. Any non-trivial companies working in > that area are working as Lately we see more and more companies talking of "Corporate Social Responsibility" and pride themselves in supporting and making a positive impact on "Local Communities". In case of Democracies, the behaviours that does not fall strictly within ambit of law has to be "regulated" by advocacy and (vehement) public opinion. Often times similar companies align themselves into "Chambers of Commerce" to protect their own interests and often have written code of ethics to which a member constituent has to strictly adhere to. I would make a reasonable assumption that a company producing a "Open Source" component is very likely to depend on other "Open Source" components during it's production process. Putting all the above different items together: FLOSS companies has to be pressured in to act in ways that nurture the ecosystem and prevented from acting in ways that is harmful to the ecosystem. The companies have to adopt an ethical standard where part of their funds for CSR program is used to fund their FLOSS peers.. A common user has to be educated so that he can exert his pressure in the right direction. Campaigns for boycott comes to my mind here. The citizens can also lobby with the governments and insist on their governments allocating budgetary funds to FLOSS projects that the governments have to come rely on. As I put my thoughts down, it is becoming increasing clear that an education campaign and programs like boycott or making hostile takeovers a tabeau would considerably strengthen the FLOSS ecosystem. Just as with Liberty, the goal of FLOSS is not to improve the "happiness" of a single or narrowed set of entities but to improve the "sum total of happiness" of the entire ecosystem. Jambunathan K. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 20:37 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 20:59 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2011-06-17 20:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel I think this conversation would be better suited to somewhere else, eg the gnu-misc-discuss list. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Yet another generic "free" vs. "open source" thread 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 20:13 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-17 20:37 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-19 14:33 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-19 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: fs-phil, emacs-devel This is my last post in this thread on this list. I've created a separate list on my own host, "fs-phil@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp". It's a mailman list, subscribe as usual. It will be open post until it gets spam, then posting will be restricted to members. The only on-topic content restriction is that you're not allowed to complain that the list's name is inappropriate given the owner's philosophy. Archives are available in /pipermail/fs-phil/. GMane subscription welcome, but I'm not gonna bother myself. MFT and Reply-To set. I plan to reply to other posts in the thread; I will CC: authors and recipients who aren't lists. I considered Glenn's suggestion about moving the discussion to gnu.misc.discuss, but I'm not known there and don't feel like working out those issues on yet another list. This may very well kill this thread dead on both lists. :-) But.... David Kastrup writes: > Creating free software sucks as a business model because access to it is > by its nature not constrainable. Any non-trivial companies working in > that area are working as > > a) creating software on demand where the customer does not care about > the license. > b) creating distributions of free software and selling copies. > c) trying to make a service model around free software. You forgot to mention that you don't call it a business model unless it is the foundation of your *whole* business. In any case, while open source advocates do have their eyes on business models, for the ones I'm talking about, it's their personal lives, and quite often, their working environment, where they really care about the issues. > And so on. While the companies crash and burn, they leave behind free > software, but without a developer base and ongoing commitment. Who needs a company to crash and burn? There are plenty of projects which never got close to commercial distribution that left behind free software, but without a developer base and ongoing commitment. And then there's MIT/X which was basically a corporate venture and the world's suckiest GUI, but still going strong at 30 or so, while only a couple of the companies are left (and most of those are Japanese, where old companies never die, they just turn into social institutions). > Beyond a certain complexity, having the source code in your hand > without the brains behind it does not help. Aye, *there* indeed is the rub. Where is Ben Wing? And Gerd Moellmann? Or Chuck Thompson (the main author of XEmacs's redisplay)? Those are important questions. > FLOSS software rates awful under the metrics that the Open Source > movement is interested in. Name names, please. I really don't think you know what you're talking about. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 20:56 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 21:27 ` Alan Mackenzie 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel (I hope I am not spamming you) I wonder how FLOSS relates to "Social Entrepreneurship/Businesses" as advocated by http://www.ashoka.org/. I think FLOSS would appeal to "Social Entrepreneurs/Businesses". A positive campaign that highlights FLOSS and "Social Entrepreneurship" ties would not only help a thriving FLOSS system but also thriving Enterprises. Jambunathan K. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 20:56 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 21:27 ` Alan Mackenzie 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2011-06-17 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jambunathan K, emacs-devel On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 02:26:54AM +0530, Jambunathan K wrote: > (I hope I am not spamming you) I'm wondering a bit about your Follow-Up-To setting, which I have ignored. > I wonder how FLOSS relates to "Social Entrepreneurship/Businesses" as > advocated by http://www.ashoka.org/. Do you think, everybody, we might bring this discussion slowly to a finish? It doesn't seem to have much specifically to do with Emacs Development, and it seems, at least in my arrogant opinion, that everything in the topic space has already been said at least once. > Jambunathan K. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-18 11:36 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-18 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel > If what you mean is, "Give me software freedom, or give me death!", "or I will create it myself." is the actual credo of the free software movement. "or something else." that of the open source movement since they focus on secondary concerns. Well said! -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 10:16 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: David Kastrup, emacs-devel Summary: I take the example of "embedded companies" and argue that "ability to build cheap, reliable and quick prototypes" is one of the determining factors why these companies favor FLOSS kernels. I seek clarification on "right to redistribute" against "contractual obligation to redistribute modified source". I close with a remark that Open Hardware would tilt the camp in favor of FLOSS camp and that there is category-killer waiting to be made. (I have enjoyed the discussions so far and understood few crucial things. Thanks for your patience.) Please read on. > Executive summary: > > I do not advocate changing the free software movement's message. I > advocate knowing your audience, and tuning the presentation of the > message to the audience you are facing at any given time. > > David Kastrup writes: > "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > > >> That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our > >> community". That is a welcome change! > > [N.B. I corrected myself later; "our community" cannot be taken to > refer to all of the open source community, as implied by the phrasing > above. David is not responsible for any misunderstanding my poor > phrasing may have caused, but I'm going to respond to his words as > written.] > > > RMS is not "most of our community", and most particularly not that part > > of our community with bad labelling habits. > > You're missing the point, which is that of all human beings not > currently in the free software movement, the most likely-to-join group > is probably the open source community. Sure, some are openly anti- > free-software-movement, but most are not. By injecting the free > software movement into that community, the goals and programs of the > movement get wider, more personal, and IMO more persuasive dissemination. > > > > This is not true of those who label themselves "open source" advocates > > > who I personally mingle with. For them, "open source" is simply "free > > > software" that does not require advocacy of software freedom as the > > > overriding goal, but rather admits many goals (including software > > > freedom as such) in various mixtures of importance. > > > > Appreciating the benefits of freedom is not a substitute for > > appreciating freedom, it is a _reason_ for appreciating freedom. The > > benefits are tangible, freedom isn't. > > What don't you understand about "software freedom as such"? > > If what you mean is, "Give me software freedom, or give me death!", > OK, but the basic fact of life in any group larger than one is that > there are many rights, they conflict, and not everybody is going to > agree with that unidimensional philosophy as a solution. > > There is a group in society (a subset of "hackers") for whom your > unidimensional philosophy is very attractive. For most people, it is > not, because software freedom is not on their radar; software itself > is only barely perceived, in the form of "hardware upgradable by > internet".[1] It greatly differs from the rights of the U.S.[2] > Declaration of Independence (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of > Happiness) -- these are universally desired (for oneself, anyway :-( ). > > It also differs from the freedoms of the U.S. Bill of Rights (speech, > association, etc). While not actually valued by *everybody*, a large > minority will insist on them because they are the essential foundation > of democratic politics, which is one (perhaps the only known) way to > reliably[3] achieve legitimate government, which is the only reliable > way known to protect individual rights and freedoms (though also known > to be reliably imperfect). > > This is a serious philosophical problem for the movement. The > movement's propaganda equates "software freedom" with "freedom of > speech", but in fact they belong to different classes. Somehow I think that the last paragraph is incomplete. Could you please clarify to what class "software freedom" rightfully belongs in the way you see it? > > The usual mantra for Open Source is "I like Open Source because it > > leads to software with fewer bugs/more features." > > That's only part of it. "Avoids lock-in" is an essential part of the > mantra, and avoiding lock-in (in a general sense, including permitting > do-it-yourself improvements, which is what open source means by > "avoids lock-in") is close to "software freedom as such", While we are talking of practical aspects of FLOSS that appeal to commercial vendor let me add this: GNU/Linux is becoming particularly popular to build sophisticated embedded systems like Ethernet Switches, Wireless Routers etc etc. Over the course of the years I see that embedded hardware vendors have moved from proprietary real-time environments to NetBSD/FreeBSD and lately to GNU/Linux (as recent as 2.6.x). Embedded market is a thriving market and venture capitalists are willing to infuse huge sums of money in to the right startups. To such enterprises, the "ability to build quick prototypes" (aka "reference models") with minimal investments is quite appealing. These companies use a stripped version of one of the stock linux distribution as a base for the "firmware kernel". These companies unabashedly tinker with the kernel in "in the face" manner and build the firmware. They also provide drivers in the kernel and distribute it alongside the vanilla kernel. The distribution of driver and their apparent upgrades is a mere posturing by these companies to "express solidarity with the GNU/Linux" system. In truth, these drivers do not exploit the full funcitonality of the underlying hardware and are often very poor substitutes for their "commercial" linux offerings (Think HP and IBM here). They use such cheap techniques as limiting the hardware address space etc etc. (I am continuing the above argument in the next paragraph. Read on) > once you unpack the requirements for "do-it-yourself improvements". > (What's missing is the right to redistribute, of course.) I know for sure these companies do not make available their firmware - remember the firmware contains fairly good portion of modified vanilla Linux stack - in a publicly accessible manner. They are happy with hypocritic posturing that making the drivers available suffices. Now the crux of my question is: Speaking only of companies (which are registered legally entities), I am confused by whether these companies are doing the right thing (in a legal sense). Does GPL lays emphasis on the right to distribute or a (mandatory contractual) obligation to redistribute? Note the subtle difference - the right to distribute would mean the right to not distribute as well. Law could be lax on individual users should it also be lax on such enterprises, which in my view, playi the devil and actually "hoard and piggback" on community produce and accumulate humongous private fortune. The onservation I am making above is not an imagined one. I am talking of companies that I had earlier worked with. Consultants in this list who closely work with the Silicon Valley companies can vouch also for veracity of this statement. > And of course this assumes that we concede to RMS the right to define > "software freedom". Some one has to define it. Let us assume that RMS is playing the role of "Chairman of the Drafting Committee of the Constitution". (I am borrowing the term used widely in the Indian context) > Many of my friends do not, and use less stringent definitions (ie, not > requiring redistributability). It is fair for you to complain that > this is not "true" software freedom, but that misses the point. These > folks are "almost there"! I have highlighted aspects of "requiring redistributability" in the above para and contrasted that against "right to redistributability". > It seems likely to me that they are fairly easy to persuade to accept > the full definition. I don't think the embedded companies with VC backings - in some sense, this group represent far right wing of capitalist spectrum - would agree to it and even actively oppose it. (By exposing the firmware they might also be disclosing "key aspects" of how their hardware is designed and functions. This is threat to life of these companies. The first thing that these companies do is to register patents for their design even before a prototype is built) I believe Free Software makes for a stronger case in conjunction with Free/Libre Hardware Designs. I think a "Category Killer" in the Open Hardware is all that is needed to tilt most of the "Open Source" camp in favor of "Free" camp. > (And of course the formal definition of "open source" is pretty much > indistinguishable from "free", although as Richard pointed out earlier > the OSI and the FSF have disgreed on the applicability to certain > licenses.) > > Please stop merely repeating the FSF propaganda about open source, and > deal with the phenomenon as it is: diverse. You cannot win the hearts > of my friends otherwise. > > So, is there anything that you still don't understand about "that is > not true of those whom I personally mingle with"? > > > If the metric is software with fewer bugs, > > For the group I am talking about, for a non-negligible minority the > metric is availability of free software with required capabilities[4], > defined as "I can download it or build it myself[5], perhaps based on > an existing project." For a larger, quite substantial, minority, the > caveat "and a specific product is not required by my employer and/or > clients" is added. > > What you have written is considered a mortal insult by the group I am > talking about. Do you really want to offend them? They don't need a > wake-up call. They know what the issue is, they just currently > disagree with the free software movement's stance. It seems to me > that this group would be easily swayed by experiencing adversity > imposed by proprietary software, or possibly well-targeted persuasion > by the movement. > > > ["I want software with fewer bugs and will use, maybe contribute > > to, software that gives me that" is] a valid stance, but not really > > worth labelling as a philosophy, > > Of course it's a philosophy, and worth labelling as such. It's very > generally applicable, and it's called "(individual) utilitarianism" or > "economism" and similar. However, I don't know anybody who actually > adheres to it outside of Ayn Rand novels, and I'm not sure any more > that even John Galt really did. > > > Footnotes: > [1] At least here in Japan, people talk about "turning on the > Internet" in lieu of "turning on the PC and connecting to the 'Net". > > [2] This is what I am familiar with; I am not going to pretend to > know about any further rights and freedoms that other cultures may > insist upon, although I acknowledge the near certainty that my list is > incomplete. > > [3] Though few engineers would recognize a 75% or so success rate as > "reliable". :-) > > [4] This is not a loophole for minor "nice features". An example > requirement would be "httpd *that does SSL*." YMMV, but people I know > are pretty strict about this. > > [5] For many this is a null set. They're web designers, etc, and > can't build software at all outside of Javascript and CSS. > > > -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 10:16 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-17 19:06 ` Jambunathan K ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-17 15:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull, David Kastrup, emacs-devel On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:16, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: > > I seek clarification on "right to redistribute" against "contractual > obligation to redistribute modified source". When you modify GPL software: 1) If you just use it "in house" (inside your company) you do not have to distribute the the modifications. (But it is of course nice if you make them available.) 2) If you let someone else use the modified software you have to distribute it. Maybe there is a "gray zone" for GPL software used on a web server? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-06-17 19:06 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 19:41 ` Jambunathan K ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, David Kastrup, emacs-devel Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> writes: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:16, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I seek clarification on "right to redistribute" against "contractual >> obligation to redistribute modified source". > > When you modify GPL software: > > 1) If you just use it "in house" (inside your company) you do not > have to distribute the the modifications. (But it is of course nice if > you make them available.) You miss the point. Companies that sell Routers obviously have their firmware running in (big) Telecom companies. The software is produced for the sole reason that it be used *not* "in house". I am not talking of hobby projects or mom-and-pop shops but businesses that are worth a fortune which have GNU/Linux as *one* of the *key components* as part of their key infrastructure. Jambunathan K. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-17 19:06 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 19:41 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 23:21 ` PJ Weisberg 2011-06-19 11:47 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 19:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, David Kastrup, emacs-devel > Maybe there is a "gray zone" for GPL software used on a web server? Or on search servers or embedded devices ... Jambunathan K. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-17 19:06 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 19:41 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-17 23:21 ` PJ Weisberg 2011-06-19 11:47 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: PJ Weisberg @ 2011-06-17 23:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 8:33 AM, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:16, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I seek clarification on "right to redistribute" against "contractual >> obligation to redistribute modified source". > > When you modify GPL software: > > 1) If you just use it "in house" (inside your company) you do not > have to distribute the the modifications. (But it is of course nice if > you make them available.) > > 2) If you let someone else use the modified software you have to distribute it. No, if you let someone else use the modified software, you have to *let them* distribute it. If they want to. You also have to provide them with the modified source code. Copyright law never *requires* you to make copies of anything. > Maybe there is a "gray zone" for GPL software used on a web server? This is what the Affero GPL was meant to address. -PJ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2011-06-17 23:21 ` PJ Weisberg @ 2011-06-19 11:47 ` Richard Stallman 3 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-19 11:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: stephen, dak, emacs-devel Maybe there is a "gray zone" for GPL software used on a web server? It is not very gray. The GNU AGPL adds the requirement that if you run the program on a server, you make its source available to the users of that server. The GNU GPL does not require this. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-19 19:51 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-19 23:58 ` whda 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Randal L. Schwartz @ 2011-06-19 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Some time in the past few weeks, dired-dwim-target mode seems to have forgotten how to work (it's not offering the directory of the other buffer in the same window as a prefix). I haven't had a chance to narrow the commit down, but if that rings a bell for anyone, consider this a nudge. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-19 19:51 ` dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now Randal L. Schwartz @ 2011-06-19 23:58 ` whda 2011-06-20 1:19 ` Tim Cross 2011-06-20 9:00 ` martin rudalics 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: whda @ 2011-06-19 23:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel > Some time in the past few weeks, dired-dwim-target mode seems to have > forgotten how to work (it's not offering the directory of the other > buffer in the same window as a prefix). I haven't had a chance to > narrow the commit down, but if that rings a bell for anyone, consider > this a nudge. I didn't look at commits, but it seems `dired-dwim-target-directory' calls `get-window-with-predicate' in such a way that the first window returned is possibly the current window itself. It seems the (unspecified?) order in which `get-window-with-predicate' tests windows may have changed. I think the solution is to exclude from consideration dired buffers that have the same current directory as the current window. This seems most consistent with the current (23.2) stable emacs. The real problem might be with window.el though. dired-aux.el hasn't changed recently. Patch: === modified file 'lisp/dired-aux.el' *** lisp/dired-aux.el 2011-05-21 02:07:25 +0000 --- lisp/dired-aux.el 2011-06-19 23:33:36 +0000 *************** Optional arg HOW-TO determiness how to t *** 1583,1589 **** (let* ((other-win (get-window-with-predicate (lambda (window) (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) ! (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))))) (other-dir (and other-win (with-current-buffer (window-buffer other-win) (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) --- 1583,1591 ---- (let* ((other-win (get-window-with-predicate (lambda (window) (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) ! (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) ! (not (eq (dired-current-directory) ! this-dir))))))) (other-dir (and other-win (with-current-buffer (window-buffer other-win) (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-19 23:58 ` whda @ 2011-06-20 1:19 ` Tim Cross 2011-06-21 15:49 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-20 9:00 ` martin rudalics 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2011-06-20 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: whda; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3070 bytes --] On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 9:58 AM, <whda@csua.berkeley.edu> wrote: > > Some time in the past few weeks, dired-dwim-target mode seems to have > > forgotten how to work (it's not offering the directory of the other > > buffer in the same window as a prefix). I haven't had a chance to > > narrow the commit down, but if that rings a bell for anyone, consider > > this a nudge. > > I didn't look at commits, but it seems `dired-dwim-target-directory' > calls `get-window-with-predicate' in such a way that the first window > returned is possibly the current window itself. It seems the > (unspecified?) order in which `get-window-with-predicate' tests windows > may have changed. I think the solution is to exclude from consideration > dired buffers that have the same current directory as the current > window. This seems most consistent with the current (23.2) stable emacs. > > The real problem might be with window.el though. dired-aux.el hasn't > changed recently. > > Patch: > > === modified file 'lisp/dired-aux.el' > *** lisp/dired-aux.el 2011-05-21 02:07:25 +0000 > --- lisp/dired-aux.el 2011-06-19 23:33:36 +0000 > *************** Optional arg HOW-TO determiness how to t > *** 1583,1589 **** > (let* ((other-win (get-window-with-predicate > (lambda (window) > (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) > ! (eq major-mode 'dired-mode))))) > (other-dir (and other-win > (with-current-buffer (window-buffer > other-win) > (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) > --- 1583,1591 ---- > (let* ((other-win (get-window-with-predicate > (lambda (window) > (with-current-buffer (window-buffer window) > ! (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) > ! (not (eq (dired-current-directory) > ! this-dir))))))) > (other-dir (and other-win > (with-current-buffer (window-buffer > other-win) > (and (eq major-mode 'dired-mode) > > > > There has been a few changes in window.el recently which may explain the change in behaviour. I had lots of problems with VM with builds from last week (frames popping up unexpectedly, switching to the worng windows, new frames being used when previously existing frames were used etc. This all seems to have settled down with a fresh build from bzr sources this morning. My suggestion would be to update to latest version and if the problem persists, maybe report a bug. Much of the window/frame/buffer stuff seems pretty complex and I suspect that even the best effort to not change functionality while attempting to improve/clean-up/re-factor code will sometimes come undone! A bug report is probably the best way to alert those working on this area of the code that something they have done may have had an unintentional side effect. Tim [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3606 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-20 1:19 ` Tim Cross @ 2011-06-21 15:49 ` Randal L. Schwartz 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Randal L. Schwartz @ 2011-06-21 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes: Tim> This all seems to have settled down with a fresh build from bzr Tim> sources this morning. My suggestion would be to update to latest Tim> version and if the problem persists, maybe report a bug. Much of Tim> the window/frame/buffer stuff seems pretty complex and I suspect Tim> that even the best effort to not change functionality while Tim> attempting to improve/clean-up/re-factor code will sometimes come Tim> undone! A bug report is probably the best way to alert those Tim> working on this area of the code that something they have done may Tim> have had an unintentional side effect. The commit as of (possibly before) (git view): commit 27f3b534ac804ca3987e952725d863381b1ddfa4 Author: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> Date: Tue Jun 21 12:04:28 2011 +0200 lisp/misc.el (list-dynamic-libraries): Fix computation of header fields. Seems to have restored previous behavior. Thank you! I was getting frustrated having to actually cut-n-paste long tramp paths. :) -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-19 23:58 ` whda 2011-06-20 1:19 ` Tim Cross @ 2011-06-20 9:00 ` martin rudalics 2011-06-20 23:37 ` whda 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: martin rudalics @ 2011-06-20 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: whda; +Cc: emacs-devel >> Some time in the past few weeks, dired-dwim-target mode seems to have >> forgotten how to work (it's not offering the directory of the other >> buffer in the same window as a prefix). I haven't had a chance to >> narrow the commit down, but if that rings a bell for anyone, consider >> this a nudge. > > I didn't look at commits, but it seems `dired-dwim-target-directory' > calls `get-window-with-predicate' in such a way that the first window > returned is possibly the current window itself. It seems the > (unspecified?) order in which `get-window-with-predicate' tests windows > may have changed. That's been the case, indeed. Thanks for catching this. I've now tried to restore the previous behavior. Please try again. > I think the solution is to exclude from consideration > dired buffers that have the same current directory as the current > window. This seems most consistent with the current (23.2) stable emacs. > > The real problem might be with window.el though. dired-aux.el hasn't > changed recently. > > Patch: I think installing your patch is a good idea anyway. There's no good reason to _not_ return the selected window as first window provided it satisfies `get-window-with-predicate'. Thanks again for finding this, martin PS: I now also restored the old behavior of `get-buffer-window-list' so it starts with the selected window. As a consequence, windows on the selected frame that come before the selected window will be listed after windows on other frames. But as the present example shows it's better to remain compatible with Emacs 23. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now 2011-06-20 9:00 ` martin rudalics @ 2011-06-20 23:37 ` whda 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: whda @ 2011-06-20 23:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel >>> Some time in the past few weeks, dired-dwim-target mode seems to have >>> forgotten how to work (it's not offering the directory of the other >>> buffer in the same window as a prefix). I haven't had a chance to >>> narrow the commit down, but if that rings a bell for anyone, consider >>> this a nudge. >> >> I didn't look at commits, but it seems `dired-dwim-target-directory' >> calls `get-window-with-predicate' in such a way that the first window >> returned is possibly the current window itself. It seems the >> (unspecified?) order in which `get-window-with-predicate' tests windows >> may have changed. > >That's been the case, indeed. Thanks for catching this. I've now tried >to restore the previous behavior. Please try again. Confirmed to be working as before. >> I think the solution is to exclude from consideration >> dired buffers that have the same current directory as the current >> window. This seems most consistent with the current (23.2) stable emacs. >> >> The real problem might be with window.el though. dired-aux.el hasn't >> changed recently. >> >> Patch: > >I think installing your patch is a good idea anyway. There's no good >reason to _not_ return the selected window as first window provided it >satisfies `get-window-with-predicate'. Indeed. As I can't actually install the patch can someone else do it? >Thanks again for finding this, martin > > >PS: I now also restored the old behavior of `get-buffer-window-list' so >it starts with the selected window. As a consequence, windows on the >selected frame that come before the selected window will be listed after >windows on other frames. But as the present example shows it's better >to remain compatible with Emacs 23. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 16:41 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-17 12:06 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-19 13:49 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-17 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel > There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open > source". That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our community". That is a welcome change! It is not a change. I have always said (since 1998) that the two political camps in the free software community are the free software movement and the open source camp. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-17 12:06 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-19 13:49 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-20 21:47 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-19 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel Richard Stallman writes: > > There is a reason for this: most of our community labels itself "open > > source". > > That's the first time I've heard you refer to open source as "our > community". That is a welcome change! > > It is not a change. I have always said (since 1998) that the two > political camps in the free software community are the free software > movement and the open source camp. Indeed, I am aware of the camp vs community distinction in your writing. I must have dropped context somewhere you did not treat that explicitly. Sorry, my bad. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-19 13:49 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-20 21:47 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-20 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: emacs-devel Indeed, I am aware of the camp vs community distinction in your writing. I must have dropped context somewhere you did not treat that explicitly. Sorry, my bad. It is not a big deal. We all forget things. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 0:54 ` Chong Yidong 2011-06-16 4:23 ` Miles Bader 3 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2011-06-16 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stephen J. Turnbull; +Cc: rms, emacs-devel "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org> writes: > That's at best nonsense. Even your bete noir Eric Raymond in private > espouses the spread of software freedom as such as the main goal > ... > The public face of open source (eg, the OSI) Open source? Eric Raymond? The OSI? Let's party like it's 1999! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 0:54 ` Chong Yidong @ 2011-06-16 4:23 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:54 ` David Kastrup 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 4:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: Stephen J. Turnbull, rms, emacs-devel Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes: > Open source? Eric Raymond? The OSI? > > Let's party like it's 1999! Believe it or not, ESR yet lives! -miles -- Generous, adj. Originally this word meant noble by birth and was rightly applied to a great multitude of persons. It now means noble by nature and is taking a bit of a rest. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 4:23 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 5:54 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-16 6:50 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-16 5:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes: > Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> writes: >> Open source? Eric Raymond? The OSI? >> >> Let's party like it's 1999! > > Believe it or not, ESR yet lives! But ESR is a long behind face of OSI. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 5:54 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-16 6:50 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 6:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Kastrup; +Cc: emacs-devel David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes: >>> Let's party like it's 1999! >> >> Believe it or not, ESR yet lives! > > But ESR is a long behind face of OSI. Sure, I agree -- so much so that I'm always vaguely startled to see him pop up every once in a while. It's like a ghost from the distance past... -Miles -- gravity a demanding master ... soft soft snow ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-14 4:51 ` Deniz Dogan 2011-06-15 8:26 ` Antoine Levitt 2 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Deniz Dogan @ 2011-06-14 4:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On 2011-06-13 21:59, Richard Stallman wrote: > If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to > give the free software movement equal mention in the study's report. > "Our participation"? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-14 4:51 ` Deniz Dogan @ 2011-06-15 8:26 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Sean Sieger 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 8:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel 13/06/11 21:59, Richard Stallman > Emacs is not intended to be open source, but rather free/libre > software. We have developed it for freedom's sake, and we want people > to know this. Referring to Emacs as "open source" tends to cover up > our ethical values up behind a different view that only cites > practical values. Emacs has come a long way since the heyday of the GNU project. I expect (but I might be wrong) that for many people involved in emacs nowadays, the only thing left of this GNU commitment in emacs you take for granted is annoying splash screens and papers to sign. > See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html > for more explanation of the difference between free software and open > source. > > If you would like our participation in this study, please agree to > give the free software movement equal mention in the study's report. They don't want GNU's "official" participation in the survey, they just want the largest number of open source developpers to participate. Their study is about how open source devs work together as teams in distributed environments. Emacs is open source (aside from being "part of the GNU project"), therefore it makes sense to ask emacs devs for their input on this. Philosophy has nothing to do with it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 8:26 ` Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Sean Sieger 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Sean Sieger @ 2011-06-15 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Antoine Levitt <antoine.levitt@gmail.com> writes: Emacs has come a long way since the heyday of the GNU project. I expect (but I might be wrong) that for many people involved in emacs nowadays, the only thing left of this GNU commitment in emacs you take for granted is annoying splash screens and papers to sign. Yes. Wrong. They don't want GNU's "official" participation in the survey, they just want the largest number of open source developpers to participate. Their study is about how open source devs work together as teams in distributed environments. Emacs is open source (aside from being "part of the GNU project"), therefore it makes sense to ask emacs devs for their input on this. Philosophy has nothing to do with it. Antoine that's a sloppy way of promoting the ghost of dissolution you mention above. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Sean Sieger @ 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 12:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel 15/06/11 13:41, Sean Sieger > Antoine Levitt <antoine.levitt@gmail.com> writes: > > Emacs has come a long way since the heyday of the GNU project. I expect > (but I might be wrong) that for many people involved in emacs nowadays, > the only thing left of this GNU commitment in emacs you take for granted > is annoying splash screens and papers to sign. > > Yes. Wrong. Alright, I accept that. > They don't want GNU's "official" participation in the survey, they just > want the largest number of open source developpers to participate. Their > study is about how open source devs work together as teams in > distributed environments. Emacs is open source (aside from being "part > of the GNU project"), therefore it makes sense to ask emacs devs for > their input on this. Philosophy has nothing to do with it. > > Antoine that's a sloppy way of promoting the ghost of dissolution you > mention above. I don't promote anything. I just think that trying to force an agenda on such a survey is essentially useless. It's like someone on the street loudly complaining that the system of government is wrong to a pollster asking who you're gonna vote on the next election. It's slightly awkward to walk by, but I just have to cross the street and ignore it, which is what I'm going to do. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger 2011-06-15 14:18 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 13:59 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Sean Sieger @ 2011-06-15 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Antoine Levitt <antoine.levitt@gmail.com> writes: > They don't want GNU's "official" participation in the survey, they just > want the largest number of open source developpers to participate. Their > study is about how open source devs work together as teams in > distributed environments. Emacs is open source (aside from being "part > of the GNU project"), therefore it makes sense to ask emacs devs for > their input on this. Philosophy has nothing to do with it. > > Antoine that's a sloppy way of promoting the ghost of dissolution you > mention above. I don't promote anything. I just think that trying to force an agenda on such a survey is essentially useless. It's like someone on the street loudly complaining that the system of government is wrong to a pollster asking who you're gonna vote on the next election. It's slightly awkward to walk by, but I just have to cross the street and ignore it, which is what I'm going to do. In both cases, the pollsters are investigating possibly private matters, convictions---for one to ask for the allowance of some context to be given in the interest of more precise expression is understandable, even laudable. The abysmal nature of language has produced readings of RMS as asserting `pressure' and an `empty threat', and already in this short thread. Describing yourself as you do in your analogy above, and initially when you posited a dissolution from principled work to mere protocol, is a promotion in this conversation. It is no less valid than RMS's promotions. Move forward and promote each other's freedom of expression. The precision is the juice ... albeit flowing into the abyss. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger @ 2011-06-15 14:18 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel 15/06/11 15:47, Sean Sieger > Antoine Levitt <antoine.levitt@gmail.com> writes: > > > They don't want GNU's "official" participation in the survey, they just > > want the largest number of open source developpers to participate. Their > > study is about how open source devs work together as teams in > > distributed environments. Emacs is open source (aside from being "part > > of the GNU project"), therefore it makes sense to ask emacs devs for > > their input on this. Philosophy has nothing to do with it. > > > > Antoine that's a sloppy way of promoting the ghost of dissolution you > > mention above. > > I don't promote anything. I just think that trying to force an agenda on > such a survey is essentially useless. It's like someone on the street > loudly complaining that the system of government is wrong to a pollster > asking who you're gonna vote on the next election. It's slightly awkward > to walk by, but I just have to cross the street and ignore it, which is > what I'm going to do. > > In both cases, the pollsters are investigating possibly private matters, > convictions---for one to ask for the allowance of some context to be > given in the interest of more precise expression is understandable, even > laudable. Have you actually read the survey? It's all about how, not why. Any reason anyone might have for contributing to emacs is entirely irrelevant. This is empty arguing at its finest, so can we please recognize that everybody is agreeing with each other, answer the bloody survey, let the poor man do his job, and move on? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 14:18 ` Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 4:34 ` Miles Bader 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Antoine Levitt; +Cc: emacs-devel This is empty arguing at its finest, so can we please recognize that everybody is agreeing with each other, answer the bloody survey, let the poor man do his job, and move on? Are we all agreeing with each other? Do we have an obligation to answer an "open source" survey just because a stranger asks us to? I don't think so. I wouldn't spend a minute working on an activity that carries the banner of "open source", because I can do other things in that minute that will help the free software movement more. On the other hand, to convince the people doing that activity to also mention "free software" is an achievement for the movement. That's worth my time. I might well agree to answer the survey in exchange for that success. Have you actually read the survey? It's all about how, not why. Any reason anyone might have for contributing to emacs is entirely irrelevant. The liberationist motives of GNU may be irrelevant to those questions, but these motives are the basis for our work, and those questions are not. When I saw his message, I thought about what I could do to serve the goal of users' freedom in relation to it. I took action, and it looks like I have partly succeeded. Just answering his questions would have been easy, but it wouldn't do the job. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 4:34 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:47 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel, Antoine Levitt Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: > On the other hand, to convince the people doing that activity to also > mention "free software" is an achievement for the movement. I agree, but it seems a very good idea to be as polite as possible about these things, as it's very likely they're not making an intentional decision to omit Free Software. Saying something like "I won't answer your survey unless you change it" seems unnecessarily combative, at least as an initial response. -Miles -- Kilt, n. A costume sometimes worn by Scotchmen [sic] in America and Americans in Scotland. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 4:34 ` Miles Bader @ 2011-06-16 5:47 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-16 5:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Antoine Levitt, rms, emacs-devel > Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: >> On the other hand, to convince the people doing that activity to also >> mention "free software" is an achievement for the movement. > > I agree, but it seems a very good idea to be as polite as possible > about these things, as it's very likely they're not making an > intentional decision to omit Free Software. Why shouldn't the researcher choose his words to suit the style of the person he is talking to. It is a publicly documented fact that Richard loves or prefers certain words (== way of thinking) in preference to the others. It seems to me to be an error of omission from the researcher because he hasn't simply done his due diligence either in the Choice Of the Mailing List or the Choice of the Subject. (Sorry Mr.Carver) > Saying something like "I won't answer your survey unless you change > it" seems unnecessarily combative, at least as an initial response. assert(unpalatable != combative). For christ's sake, Have we never had out Mamas shout at us? "Change the style, Be Polite and get more supporters", seems an empty argument for political correctness, I believe. Richard has come a long way in his campaign and for the intelligent person that he is, would have already come to either of the following conclusions - 1. being polite or not polite makes no difference to the campaign. 2. being "combative" is actually mildly favorable, contrary to mass opinion, I believe nobody has asked Richard why he gets so upset when certain cursed words are put forth to him. That's the only right approach to take rather than take a moral high ground and advise him to be polite. I personally believe that being rude has it's uses. Being politically correct and going by the book is for the meek who serve the world and not who desire to change it. "Whatever works and Whatever does no harm" should be the motto. Let's not reform the reformer but put our wieght behind him. The next time some one pops up in this list why not it be one of us (who are too proud of our polite demeanour) frontend the allegedly impolite man. ps: I will not make any more posts on this subject. Jambunathan K. > > -Miles -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 4:34 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:47 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Miles Bader; +Cc: emacs-devel, antoine.levitt I agree, but it seems a very good idea to be as polite as possible about these things, as it's very likely they're not making an intentional decision to omit Free Software. Saying something like "I won't answer your survey unless you change it" seems unnecessarily combative, at least as an initial response. You're right, as a general point. However, since we're talking here about tone, please note that the tone I used was more gentle than "I won't answer your survey unless you change it." -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger @ 2011-06-15 13:59 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 14:55 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Antoinne > I just think that trying to force an agenda on such a survey is > essentially useless. Richard has built the Free Software Movement much by living it and much more by pure exhortation. Exhortation has it's value though it may not work against one Antoinne Leavitt. > I just have to cross the street and ignore it You cannot even live up to what you are just saying right now. By writing the mail in first place you have only shown that your words don't align with your actions == Lack Of Integrity. Sorry, Jambunathan K. -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 13:59 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 14:55 ` Antoine Levitt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Antoine Levitt @ 2011-06-15 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel 15/06/11 15:59, Jambunathan K > Antoinne > >> I just think that trying to force an agenda on such a survey is >> essentially useless. > > Richard has built the Free Software Movement much by living it and much > more by pure exhortation. Exhortation has it's value though it may not > work against one Antoinne Leavitt. Certainly not on him, I have no idea who this guy is ;) I have nothing against a good exhortation. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to find an interview of RMS in yesterday's "Le Monde". But we are talking about a survey by an academic researcher which has a completely different focus, and there's not much point in trying to shift it. > >> I just have to cross the street and ignore it > > You cannot even live up to what you are just saying right now. By > writing the mail in first place you have only shown that your words > don't align with your actions == Lack Of Integrity. I agree with you on that, I just love trolling too much. And this thread was so beautiful I couldn't resist. I couldn't even resist answering this post. Shame on my Lack Of Integrity. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger 2011-06-15 13:59 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 6:04 ` Andreas Röhler 2 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-15 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Antoine Levitt; +Cc: emacs-devel It's like someone on the street loudly complaining that the system of government is wrong to a pollster asking who you're gonna vote on the next election. Exactly. That person is aware that the poll will give a false picture of where he stands, no matter how he answers. Imagine a Green Party supporter facing a survey that asks him to answer from 0 to 10, where 0 means Republican and 10 means Democrat, and that asks him to rate various proposed methods to keep the price of fossil fuel low. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman @ 2011-06-16 6:04 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 6:36 ` Jambunathan K 0 siblings, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 6:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Am 16.06.2011 01:36, schrieb Richard Stallman: > It's like someone on the street > loudly complaining that the system of government is wrong to a pollster > asking who you're gonna vote on the next election. > > Exactly. That person is aware that the poll will give a false picture > of where he stands, no matter how he answers. Imagine a Green Party > supporter facing a survey that asks him to answer from 0 to 10, where > 0 means Republican and 10 means Democrat, and that asks him to rate > various proposed methods to keep the price of fossil fuel low. > Hi Richard, think that's exactly the matter at stake when such a survey shows up. One might be still more paranoid to be realistic here IMHO. Nonetheless please permit a remark still at the complex matter which stirred up this thread: When the first modern declaration of human rights showed up in french revolution of 1789 it was closely followed by guillotines. Unfortunatly both evenements are linked together and history tends to repeat this series up to the present wars. I'm not going to question the sincerity of this men declaring human rights at this time BTW. Nor do I question your sincerity and even your reasoning. Your are perfectly right on a logical level of expression. The issue which I have with words like freedom in real politics is: the more holy the cause, the more victims are permitted. So I have some favor for the wording "Open Source" not with respect to a precise license politics or specific institute, but because it's not that pathetic, doesn't that have that smell. Cheers, Andreas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 6:04 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 6:36 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 8:17 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 9:57 ` cp 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-16 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andreas Röhler; +Cc: emacs-devel > When the first modern declaration of human rights showed up in french > revolution of 1789 it was closely followed by guillotines. > So I have some favor for the wording "Open Source" not with respect to > a precise license politics or specific institute, but because it's not > that pathetic, doesn't that have that smell. While we are discussing about making the words culturally netural - Andreas here is talking here from a French perspective - ,---- | “Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the | concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free | beer.” `---- let me add my 2 paise from an Indian perspective. As an Indian, I have never understood what the meaning of the phrase "free beer" is. A typical (layman) Indian is averse and even a stranger to drinking. Furthermore, Gandhi himself favored Prohibition and the distribution of liquor is even state-controlled in few of the states. So the phrasing "free beer" makes no sense to me at all. Even if there be reasons to retain the "free beer" phraseology (say, from purely historical perspective) , I recommend that a footnote or a reference be provided (elsewhere - Wikipedia?) where the meaning of the above metaphor is better clarified. As a lay person, I better relate to metaphors (as could be seen in my other posts) Hope my submission is considered, Jambunathan K. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 6:36 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-06-16 8:17 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 9:57 ` cp 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 8:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Am 16.06.2011 08:36, schrieb Jambunathan K: > >> When the first modern declaration of human rights showed up in french >> revolution of 1789 it was closely followed by guillotines. > >> So I have some favor for the wording "Open Source" not with respect to >> a precise license politics or specific institute, but because it's not >> that pathetic, doesn't that have that smell. > > While we are discussing about making the words culturally netural - > Andreas here is talking here from a French perspective - Hi Jambunathan, referring to historical events doesn't mean adopting it's perspective. As we are able to read books about history, we may take that experience to a certain extent, even if not witnessed personally. Also you can't refer to events neglecting it's real existing personage, it's sex, location, political or religious orientation - which doesn't hinder abstraction and relation. The culturally neutral speech whould require the men stripped from it's history and heritance. That would be an in-human requiring. > > ,---- > | “Free software” is a matter of liberty, not price. To understand the > | concept, you should think of “free” as in “free speech,” not as in “free > | beer.” > `---- > > let me add my 2 paise from an Indian perspective. > > As an Indian, I have never understood what the meaning of the phrase > "free beer" is. > > A typical (layman) Indian is averse and even a stranger to > drinking. Furthermore, Gandhi himself favored Prohibition and the > distribution of liquor is even state-controlled in few of the states. > > So the phrasing "free beer" makes no sense to me at all. Think you simply are not saying the truth here. You should be well aware reading words from other cultural contextes and understand it's meaning. And you are. Think about. BTW should you feel humiliated by colonial occupation history, you can't pay that back to people how are against colonialism. Colonisation was not an act decided by western people, but by the oppressing ruling powers. Also it's not western specific. Occupation took place in all parts of the world AFAIK. Beside from this more basic considerations, it seems worth reflecting if "beer" is the best relation to do at this place. Cheers, Andreas > > Even if there be reasons to retain the "free beer" phraseology (say, > from purely historical perspective) , I recommend that a footnote or a > reference be provided (elsewhere - Wikipedia?) where the meaning of the > above metaphor is better clarified. > > As a lay person, I better relate to metaphors (as could be seen in my > other posts) > > Jambunathan K. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 6:36 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 8:17 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 9:57 ` cp 2011-06-16 10:40 ` Andreas Röhler 1 sibling, 1 reply; 81+ messages in thread From: cp @ 2011-06-16 9:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel On 06/16/2011 08:36 AM, Jambunathan K wrote: >> > When the first modern declaration of human rights showed up in french >> > revolution of 1789 it was closely followed by guillotines. Ironically, when RMS comes in France to explain Free Software to French, he says most of the time: "I can explain free software in three words. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Everything Sarkozy hates." I agree with him :) Meaning, never forget who you are to succeed. Guillotines no longer exist in France, but French kept their values with La Marseillaise. http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/La_Marseillaise >> > So I have some favor for the wording "Open Source" not with respect to >> > a precise license politics or specific institute, but because it's not >> > that pathetic, doesn't that have that smell. > While we are discussing about making the words culturally netural - > Andreas here is talking here from a French perspective - Andreas forgot to say that most hackers in France are talking about Logiciel Libre (meaning Free Software), only businessmen are using the wording of "open source" there, in the aim to sell some logiciel privatif with Free/Libre software, plus some windows users who do not know the meaning. The fact is that THIS thread is US-centric, and I support RMS on his feedback. Just my two cents :-) -- Support free software! Join FSF: https://my.fsf.org/associate/support_freedom?referrer=4574 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 9:57 ` cp @ 2011-06-16 10:40 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 14:24 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-16 16:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 0 siblings, 2 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 10:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Am 16.06.2011 11:57, schrieb cp@canaxis.org: > On 06/16/2011 08:36 AM, Jambunathan K wrote: >>> > When the first modern declaration of human rights showed up in french >>> > revolution of 1789 it was closely followed by guillotines. > > Ironically, when RMS comes in France to explain Free Software to French, > he says most of the time: "I can explain free software in three words. > Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. Everything Sarkozy hates." > > I agree with him :) Meaning, never forget who you are to succeed. > Guillotines no longer exist in France, but French kept their values with > La Marseillaise. > > http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/La_Marseillaise Thanks pointing at that. Unfortunatly very recent politics demonstrates it's neither a joke nor some antiquity. > >>> > So I have some favor for the wording "Open Source" not with respect to >>> > a precise license politics or specific institute, but because it's not >>> > that pathetic, doesn't that have that smell. >> While we are discussing about making the words culturally netural - >> Andreas here is talking here from a French perspective - > > Andreas forgot to say that most hackers in France are talking about > Logiciel Libre (meaning Free Software), only businessmen are using the > wording of "open source" there, in the aim to sell some logiciel > privatif with Free/Libre software, plus some windows users who do not > know the meaning. The fact is that THIS thread is US-centric, and I > support RMS on his feedback. So do I. Even when contradicting :-) Finally the truth is a process. What about a hypothetical, in my eyes more measured response: "Please note: Emacs focus in not to be just open source, but rather free/libre software. We have developed it for freedom's sake, and we want people to know this." As for the following passage it makes me headache in various respects. "Open source" doesn't contrast with GPL practical aspects at all IMHO. The GPL is of great practicability, also from a pure technical aspect. (Which again doesn't exclude questioning some stipulations...) People may well choose GPL for very practical reasons. As for the "ethical values" --otherwise only stressed in churches that often-- I'd prefer it not that outspoken, rather realising it, which in so far is done by Emacs developers. Cheers, Andreas > > Just my two cents :-) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 10:40 ` Andreas Röhler @ 2011-06-16 14:24 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-16 16:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: David Kastrup @ 2011-06-16 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@online.de> writes: > "Open source" doesn't contrast with GPL practical aspects at all > IMHO. The GPL is of great practicability, also from a pure technical > aspect. (Which again doesn't exclude questioning some stipulations...) > People may well choose GPL for very practical reasons. People may choose to eat hosts or burn furniture for very practical reasons, but that's not a particularly meaningful aspect for explaining their purpose. -- David Kastrup ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
* Re: Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" 2011-06-16 10:40 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 14:24 ` David Kastrup @ 2011-06-16 16:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 1 sibling, 0 replies; 81+ messages in thread From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2011-06-16 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andreas Röhler; +Cc: emacs-devel Andreas Röhler writes: > As for the "ethical values" --otherwise only stressed in churches that > often-- I'd prefer it not that outspoken, rather realising it, which in > so far is done by Emacs developers. The problem is that "there exists free software you may choose" is not the same thing as "software freedom", which means "any software you may choose is free". The former is what the naive will see when they look at Emacs, not the latter. Especially if they're running on Windows or the NS port on Mac.... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 81+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2011-06-21 15:49 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 81+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-06-13 17:04 Participation Requested: Survey about Open-Source Software Development Jeffrey Carver 2011-06-13 19:59 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 3:24 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-14 16:00 ` opensourcesurvey 2011-06-14 22:42 ` Karl Fogel 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-14 23:48 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-15 4:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 10:14 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 10:51 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-15 11:00 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-15 16:55 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 11:54 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 12:52 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 13:19 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 13:26 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-06-15 14:06 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-15 15:23 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-15 19:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-15 23:35 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 4:22 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:10 ` Paul Eggert 2011-06-16 5:19 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 16:59 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-18 1:02 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 16:16 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 16:41 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-16 17:26 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 6:09 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 8:21 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 10:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 15:29 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-17 20:13 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-17 20:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 20:59 ` Glenn Morris 2011-06-19 14:33 ` Yet another generic "free" vs. "open source" thread Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-17 20:56 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 21:27 ` Alan Mackenzie 2011-06-18 11:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-17 10:16 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 15:33 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-06-17 19:06 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 19:41 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-17 23:21 ` PJ Weisberg 2011-06-19 11:47 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-19 19:51 ` dired "dwim" mode seems to fail now Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-19 23:58 ` whda 2011-06-20 1:19 ` Tim Cross 2011-06-21 15:49 ` Randal L. Schwartz 2011-06-20 9:00 ` martin rudalics 2011-06-20 23:37 ` whda 2011-06-17 12:06 ` Please don't refer to Emacs as "open source" Richard Stallman 2011-06-19 13:49 ` Stephen J. Turnbull 2011-06-20 21:47 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 0:54 ` Chong Yidong 2011-06-16 4:23 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:54 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-16 6:50 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-14 4:51 ` Deniz Dogan 2011-06-15 8:26 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 11:41 ` Sean Sieger 2011-06-15 12:11 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 13:47 ` Sean Sieger 2011-06-15 14:18 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 4:34 ` Miles Bader 2011-06-16 5:47 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 20:11 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-15 13:59 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-15 14:55 ` Antoine Levitt 2011-06-15 23:36 ` Richard Stallman 2011-06-16 6:04 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 6:36 ` Jambunathan K 2011-06-16 8:17 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 9:57 ` cp 2011-06-16 10:40 ` Andreas Röhler 2011-06-16 14:24 ` David Kastrup 2011-06-16 16:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
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