From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: face for non-ASCII characters Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:20:45 +0200 Message-ID: References: <8739linpib.fsf@lifelogs.com> <86815A0AB7354FA3874096E7B5FA2F08@us.oracle.com> <87tydym9fs.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87lizam8zt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <878vv7imqp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87k4erh6q3.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874o5uie42.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87y635dll9.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87r58vbj7o.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87fwpba03q.fsf@lifelogs.com> <874o5rqr5z.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87mxjjpal4.fsf@lifelogs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1303474878 31523 80.91.229.12 (22 Apr 2011 12:21:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:21:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ted Zlatanov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 22 14:21:13 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QDFMG-0006xA-Af for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:21:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37718 helo=lists2.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QDFMF-0001kv-Od for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:21:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:59685) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QDFMC-0001kf-GJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:21:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QDFMB-0002iC-2E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:21:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ey0-f169.google.com ([209.85.215.169]:56247) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QDFMA-0002hz-Rc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:21:07 -0400 Original-Received: by eyd9 with SMTP id 9so183496eyd.0 for ; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 05:21:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BmWpBwnAzxuE8fqUfEg0XQtW1XNIpzi40DWQsY+W+xE=; b=XTIX3aIbbwSKDrBk3cma4uwL8d/wBhloOwvw9ejfpH+wdZMKZAniUCUnvEwP8GvUBt +fQUtua+quhjO/B5UQut6nlsj4rVx0F8kp3zMfLsrJbbfJC2oc4SKaQ4DaCbqMmx7z1L JB8mIpQkaXp+/uwRARrHJZcdWtDuZCav5hA6Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ijrWC6DtE4AhRajGU2GRVMkyxF1WNVRcgZo5Nqj7YcsPaiUxpeOj/uXcNpwgQus/Xa 97y64ZZfY9aeJjY7qjTyzp5bJWPHVTN6N4jVvr83+gLcu0UbhijLCY25p5dPuj67C/Kt wBABMjM6dwBwI5L+j18rJHMhbz+ww2fMsXl5M= Original-Received: by 10.213.109.199 with SMTP id k7mr209487ebp.134.1303474865271; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 05:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.213.23.8 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Apr 2011 05:20:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87mxjjpal4.fsf@lifelogs.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.215.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:138638 Archived-At: 2011/4/21 Ted Zlatanov : > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:53:01 +0200 Lennart Borgman wrote: > > LB> 2011/4/21 Ted Zlatanov : >>>>> I'm not sure what you mean about dynamic loading. >>> > LB> What I mean here is what can be used in nXhtml: If you (require > LB> 'somelib) and somelib.el is not on your computer then you can have it > LB> automatically downloaded from nXhtml repository (with a possibility t= o > LB> check the code before actually installing it). >>> >>> I would be strongly opposed to opportunistic package installations in >>> general, although nXhtml can use it internally of course. > > LB> Why is the word opportunistic used by you here? I do not have time to > LB> discuss if you do not take it seriously. Please describe exactly what > LB> it is you do not like instead. > > "Opportunistic" means it's installed when you need it as you said. > "Dynamic loading" is a term easily confused with the Unix dynamic > libraries, that's why I avoided it. =C2=A0I am not using "opportunistic" > disparagingly. Oh, I see. Then my answer was inappropriate. My excuses. And I am glad I was wrong. > I am opposed to opportunistic installs because they destabilize the > working environment. =C2=A0They may make sense in a tightly controlled > environment, but for a general audience (all Emacs users) I think they > are a bad idea. =C2=A0Most package managers I've used (Perl, Python, Ruby= , > Emacs, XEmacs, Unix distributions) do static installs. I can surely see the problem, but if the opportunistic installer asks (and make it possible to check) before each install I do not think it is an additional problem when using Emacs. For another comparison think about the firewalls. They effectively act similar to such an opportunistic installer as I suggest when they ask you if you want a program to be able to do that and that. > This is different from autoloading, where you know the library is > available and you've scanned it for autoload cookies. This can be done by an opportunistic installer. In fact the opportunistic installer in nXhtml allows you to check the file. > LB> You are greatly exaggerating. The difference between ELPA and nXhtml > LB> here is that nXhtml will propose that you can install a library to ge= t > LB> things working while ELPA will not do that. > > ELPA will install all the dependencies when it installs the library. =C2= =A0So > when the library is installed, you won't have surprises later. =C2=A0If > you're talking about optional add-ons and plugins, that's a different > discussion :) It is not clear all the time what dependencies there are since that may depend on how you are using a library. That is why I think an opportunistic installer is good. > As I said, you should make the opportunistic/dynamic loading proposal > and maybe it will be accepted. =C2=A0While it seems to me like a bad idea= , > it's entirely possible it turns out to be good! =C2=A0We won't know until > it's discussed directly. I do not have time to discuss it much now, but please see my explanations a= bove. > LB> At first sight one might think that your proposal to mirror > LB> markchars.el into ELPA is not troublesome. However you may end up wit= h > LB> two versions of markchars.el if you mirror it into ELPA now. > > That would last for at most 1 day, until the nightly synchronization > catches up with the nXhtml repository. =C2=A0I think that's OK. =C2=A0The= nXhtml > repository will still be the primary repository. A misunderstanding. I was referring to two versions in different locations on the users computers. > LB> I would be glad to have it in ELPA - if just the automatic > LB> installation could be fixed too. > > Can you give a specific scenario where markchars.el in both the GNU ELPA > and in nXhtml would be a problem? =C2=A0I want to understand what needs t= o be > fixed. Please see just above. > LB> But you are however of course free to do what you want. > > Sure, but I'd rather collaborate if I can. =C2=A0The easiest thing (just = keep > markchars.el in the GNU ELPA) is not the best thing for the users. Good. I am not sure either but want to give you my concerns. Please feel free to handle it the way you think is best at the moment.