From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Summer Emacs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Newbie Info Pages Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:20:33 +0200 Message-ID: References: <86ttekjbxk.fsf@gnu.org> <51D1701A-4E38-4D8F-9D9C-ABDD7013933E@summerstar.me> <86plp7kf13.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3776.700.51\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CB5BFBF0-F972-4EED-B063-437353CB5222" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6149"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Corwin Brust , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 13 13:22:11 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sp4NM-0001ML-Uc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:22:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp4Mf-0003vt-JL; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:21:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp4Md-0003o9-El for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:21:23 -0400 Original-Received: from st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com ([17.58.63.183]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sp4Mb-00024q-8B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 07:21:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=summerstar.me; s=sig1; t=1726226479; bh=a7Nb7K7kug5o0t/i8njunfsfAa8xqECbakwLxuzKmug=; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:To; b=PiwqJbDTqOiNAz1NK3l8LbxQfsI06aNQ7llg0yYl/W59JEu6Ptus8GxsK5Vg2RzxY siE709Fv6zt1j/vzOUtBj/Y0CP7ikxu5JADBRY9iA5koXsimRkp60U7q9lYPbzBF2M xR/+9Rkn/OFhFVt3PVVPlruV6fhRJ966+cDOs6WdAaciTX6LVnIsXUeedua+qyzF+h VAJjfbJCjXUr2ZOuwiCko9z1z34SKXcqe37lk0MhVovNqJbEURdeHXSe+45Ok+RbKx FqlJKHZPxS++SSoemuv0QaupX20H0RlEnj8Zzq1vsV+7NvpAR9cvMOcGdZ6HJo112f ub6QaHfdMBnrg== Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (st43p00im-dlb-asmtp-mailmevip.me.com [17.42.251.41]) by st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0E3FF1C08CA; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 11:21:16 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <86plp7kf13.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3776.700.51) X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: 2IhdF-EFBFO6A5pyq9UetGc8J5lO-rpO X-Proofpoint-GUID: 2IhdF-EFBFO6A5pyq9UetGc8J5lO-rpO X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.60.29 definitions=2024-09-13_09,2024-09-13_01,2024-09-02_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1030 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2409130079 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.183; envelope-from=summeremacs@summerstar.me; helo=st43p00im-ztbu10073701.me.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323584 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_CB5BFBF0-F972-4EED-B063-437353CB5222 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Sep 13, 2024, at 12:46, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >=20 >> From: Summer Emacs > >> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:45:25 +0200 >> Cc: Corwin Brust >, >> emacs-devel@gnu.org >>=20 >> Yeah. I=E2=80=99ve been told. The problem with this is the following: >>=20 >> Premise: Everyone is different. Everyone has different needs. >>=20 >> Deduction: No tutorial will ever meet the needs of every single = person. >>=20 >> Conclusion: Let=E2=80=99s not do anything. >>=20 >> Instead, let=E2=80=99s try this: >>=20 >> Premise: Most people who use Emacs are devs. >> Given: Not everyone who uses Emacs is a dev. >> Deduction: The people who aren=E2=80=99t devs may get lost in the = assumptions made in Emacs welcome pages. >> Conclusion: Let=E2=80=99s make a tutorial for people who aren=E2=80=99t= devs. >>=20 >> I think mine sounds better and, maybe with a little luck and a touch = of effort, we may get somewhere. =3D) >=20 > I think the "conclusion" you cite above, to do nothing, is not a > conclusion we arrived at. (I also think it's a bit unfair to claim > that we arrived at such a "conclusion": it almost says we make silly > conclusions here.) I think instead we acknowledged the problem and > tried to find solutions for it, like trying to identify the meaningful > classes/groups of users, so as to have a dedicated tutorial/mode for > each one of them. >=20 > I think a tutorial for people who are not software developers is an > okay solution, but that doesn't make the issue go away: non-developers > are still not a homogeneous group, and the challenge I mentions still > exists, albeit is perhaps smaller. Understood! Ok. I agree with you entirely though, but I think it would be a really = simple affair to start something rather easy to understand for anyone. Let me give you an example of what I think is a GOOD thing which teaches = about Emacs: The Emacs Movement/Keys Tutorial. I think that=E2=80=99s a = great tutorial. I understood it. It was easy to follow, and easy to use, = and I learned it in no time. Whomever wrote that was great at that job. = I want to emulate that for other stuff: Start from the point of view = that the user doesn=E2=80=99t know the first thing about anything, and = take them through some of the following: 1) What Emacs is and how they will learn it step by step. 2) Configuration 3) Themes (emphasise that they can make it look like they want to but = here are a few examples of themes you can try out right now and where to = get more and try those out) 4) Packages (We will want to list the major ones for writing/note = taking. Org-Mode, EWS, Denote, Org-Roam, Fontaine because fonts are = important to people, and Olivetti are some of the ones I=E2=80=99m = thinking about.) There will be more packages listed, and please read what I wrote in my = rough draft to cover the fact that we are not favouring certain packages = over others: Emacs has so many packages available from so many people that they can't = really all be counted. But rest assured: it numbers in the thousands. = Since the assumption for those reading this tutorial is that they are = not coders or developers, we are going to focus mostly on packages which = will help you get up and running with your writing needs. Here are some = suggested packages. There are many more which are not covered here and = this is not necessarily an endorsement of one package over another. = These are just helpful starting places for new users. I know that this will be contentious, just like our choosing certain = themes and some minimalist configs, but look: we have to start = someplace. And we have to make editorial decisions. What do you think? Also, if anyone else wants to collaborate on the = document, I=E2=80=99m absolutely willing to do that and I=E2=80=99m even = hoping for it. Please let me know how to go about sharing this with = others who are interested in doing this. Do we set up a private email = list? Do we collaborate on a git somewhere? I=E2=80=99m not sure how it = all works and I=E2=80=99m willing to learn. But I do want to get this = done sometime. =3D) Before I forget: I include the link to the Emacs Movement/Keys tutorial = at the top of my rough draft. People may miss it on the front page and I = don=E2=80=99t want them to miss it. Yes, maybe it=E2=80=99s redundant, = but if they=E2=80=99re going to click on a =E2=80=9CNew User? Click = here!=E2=80=9D thing, I will still want them to see it and do it. Again: = I want to use what=E2=80=99s already built into Emacs, not change = anything, and just give a landing place for newbies to learn about it. Summer Emacs. --Apple-Mail=_CB5BFBF0-F972-4EED-B063-437353CB5222 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Sep 13, = 2024, at 12:46, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

From: Summer = Emacs <summeremacs@summerstar.me>= ;
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:45:25 +0200
Cc: Corwin Brust <corwin@bru.st>,
emacs-devel@gnu.org

Yeah. = I=E2=80=99ve been told. The problem with this is the = following:

Premise: Everyone is different. Everyone has different = needs.

Deduction: No tutorial will ever meet the needs of every = single person.

Conclusion: Let=E2=80=99s not do = anything.

Instead, let=E2=80=99s try this:

Premise: Most = people who use Emacs are devs.
Given: Not everyone who uses Emacs is = a dev.
Deduction: The people who aren=E2=80=99t devs may get lost in = the assumptions made in Emacs welcome pages.
Conclusion: Let=E2=80=99s = make a tutorial for people who aren=E2=80=99t devs.

I think mine = sounds better and, maybe with a little luck and a touch of effort, we = may get somewhere. =3D)

I think = the "conclusion" you cite above, to do nothing, is not a
conclusion we arrived at.  (I also think it's a bit = unfair to claim
that we = arrived at such a "conclusion": it almost says we make silly
conclusions here.)  I think instead we acknowledged = the problem and
tried = to find solutions for it, like trying to identify the = meaningful
classes/groups of users, so as to have a dedicated = tutorial/mode for
each = one of them.

I think = a tutorial for people who are not software developers is an
okay = solution, but that doesn't make the issue go away: = non-developers
are = still not a homogeneous group, and the challenge I mentions = still
exists, = albeit is perhaps = smaller.

Understood!
Ok.= I agree with you entirely though, but I think it would be a really = simple affair to start something rather easy to understand for = anyone.

Let me give you an example of what I = think is a GOOD thing which teaches about Emacs: The Emacs Movement/Keys = Tutorial. I think that=E2=80=99s a great tutorial. I understood it. It = was easy to follow, and easy to use, and I learned it in no time. = Whomever wrote that was great at that job. I want to emulate that for = other stuff: Start from the point of view that the user doesn=E2=80=99t = know the first thing about anything, and take them through some of the = following:
1) What Emacs is and how they will learn it step by = step.
2) Configuration
3) Themes (emphasise that they can = make it look like they want to but here are a few examples of themes you = can try out right now and where to get more and try those out)
4) = Packages (We will want to list the major ones for writing/note taking. = Org-Mode, EWS, Denote, Org-Roam, Fontaine because fonts are important to = people, and Olivetti are some of the ones I=E2=80=99m thinking = about.)
There will be more packages listed, and please read = what I wrote in my rough draft to cover the fact that we are not = favouring certain packages over others:

Emacs has so many packages available from so many people = that they can't really all be counted. But rest assured: it numbers in = the thousands. Since the assumption for those reading this tutorial is = that they are not coders or developers, we are going to focus mostly on = packages which will help you get up and running with your writing needs. = Here are some suggested packages. There are many more which are not = covered here and this is not necessarily an endorsement of one package = over another. These are just helpful starting places for new = users.

I know that this will be = contentious, just like our choosing certain themes and some minimalist = configs, but look: we have to start someplace. And we have to make = editorial decisions.

What do you think? Also, if = anyone else wants to collaborate on the document, I=E2=80=99m absolutely = willing to do that and I=E2=80=99m even hoping for it. Please let me = know how to go about sharing this with others who are interested in = doing this. Do we set up a private email list? Do we collaborate on a = git somewhere? I=E2=80=99m not sure how it all works and I=E2=80=99m = willing to learn. But I do want to get this done sometime. = =3D)

Before I forget: I include the link to the = Emacs Movement/Keys tutorial at the top of my rough draft. People may = miss it on the front page and I don=E2=80=99t want them to miss it. Yes, = maybe it=E2=80=99s redundant, but if they=E2=80=99re going to click on a = =E2=80=9CNew User? Click here!=E2=80=9D thing, I will still want them to = see it and do it. Again: I want to use what=E2=80=99s already built into = Emacs, not change anything, and just give a landing place for newbies to = learn about it.

Summer = Emacs.

= --Apple-Mail=_CB5BFBF0-F972-4EED-B063-437353CB5222--