From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jean-Christophe Helary Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: macOS support Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 14:49:31 +0900 Message-ID: References: <83fu4tjmdv.fsf@gnu.org> <20180321191903.GA38993@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <83d0zxjk5p.fsf@gnu.org> <20180321201234.GA39094@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <834ll8k1tx.fsf@gnu.org> <83po3whzln.fsf@gnu.org> <20180323195210.GA41757@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <20180323214705.GA41855@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <83r2oagevx.fsf@gnu.org> <21725aad-6d7f-8ace-dffc-347bb75616bc@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F8D086DE-96EB-4CBA-97F1-813B5E25E630" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1522043270 28154 195.159.176.226 (26 Mar 2018 05:47:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 05:47:50 +0000 (UTC) To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 26 07:47:45 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f0Kyv-0007D6-54 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2018 07:47:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54730 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0L0y-0006zK-4B for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:49:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58850) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0L0m-0006y6-2H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:49:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0L0i-0002vk-T8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:49:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]:33431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0L0i-0002uE-HG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Mar 2018 01:49:36 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id f15so1392818pfn.0 for ; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 22:49:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=9O3xpW9ht7pq05SvMUSWHKd0B/AiTEedTxaR8OPn+1E=; b=m7DhpHCef6+HHX1XkRvP0Y2bfATWDJIGm6a0HT5tWoecnlPyiHPhzQTIGUImFZgaD0 AGd/5LXtraDeWeC9AH0cHOVwvvB/u2LcRa+4MN61c5d2VJjodosTpZOKN95lHrhHU7Is Kyjt9y7E+gt1upV8vUJ+xP5kpSWCM+qzSUJ0XpMFo/M2pdC/zb1hK0xAtJ+TiFM6egGT JX9DFltszH7fguxQOxG9HNkhqjIHu97vlXwCOdXW4XPrSitC4+E+mkKoGhIzZvZEyDG7 M6sjOwfAJfo1VqjG9jRNgBCTDLGe347OLfQiKyDs8Y3yuxUPqQHP7wzWzYBNb68sNB3H pXJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=9O3xpW9ht7pq05SvMUSWHKd0B/AiTEedTxaR8OPn+1E=; b=mI5uQgzG7QLicXoabQq1HpEU4J9OGijJGbL4oZycAg9ufRr4jmo1qEzrLe2CNzOmEe IJI6FvqEeqoSOrHkgAR8Gycco4U7AuqEn3QdDglGrizp1DMlsqrhTC/W0I26r1B3xO+x nHqkW8tp6gZLYMhu68azAQpOU0JAvaMkNRR2LhfzxpYsMHMjNAa47HtEBIwXm4/iodJj TgZZ3U5X0Cz6goZfe6hWPwEKXSxUiDtPOU4jhAjFDkWJSTAcH60sVnRqtg6JxUF63uyR l1YUE6pfdJ/u5mmrN3Bz3Xe1UXcbTQnkFbH4fWPZSNvceJ9F6BbE8Ow/1t30ck5j+04m 25ZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7E5XzEyt0Ug4X1O3+kgZ/a4q5D//oUGSVm4F6Pbs0Auujc8hPQO kL79jUaLjnol6iXUxG0LVLQnQQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELsyBL9WOJLngCVM58/hS3bDHYr8GEvV8D00SZ8LjfFJ6g36ftL3OAHcFm8SrHZJwulIOvZRmQ== X-Received: by 10.98.53.195 with SMTP id c186mr32100580pfa.199.1522043375211; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 22:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [10.251.103.141] ([210.160.37.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q62sm31461841pfd.61.2018.03.25.22.49.33 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 25 Mar 2018 22:49:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:224025 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_F8D086DE-96EB-4CBA-97F1-813B5E25E630 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Mar 26, 2018, at 14:41, Tim Cross wrote: >=20 > I'm not a big fan of Apple either, but do use it (primarily because = employers are more willing to support/allow Apple than Linux and I just = can't do windows, so lesser of two evils really).=20 >=20 > However, I have upgraded my old mac mini to High Sierra with no = problems. I can't remember when I actually purchased it, but from vague = memory, it originally came with mountain lion, so that would be 10.8 >=20 > I believe 10.12/10.13 are supposed to be supported on all mac mini, = imac and macbooks from 2009 models onwards. My macmini is slow, but it = was always slow. I do run Emacs on it. The good thing about Apple hardware is that it is very robust. I still = have 15+ years old PPC machines that work flawlessly. If there is a need = to draw a line in the sand somewhere it should either be the OS version = that first supported intel/32bits *only* or the one that first supported = intel/64bits *only*. I'm not sure which is which though. (@Tim: if you need some speed, think of changing your hard disk to an = SSD disk, my 2011 MBP has rejuvenated a way that I never though possible = thank to that.) Jean-Christophe=20 >=20 > Tim >=20 > P.S. I also will be putting Debian on my Mini at the end of this year.=20= >=20 >=20 > On 26 March 2018 at 13:14, Stefan Monnier > wrote: > > Generally speaking Emacs and other GNU projects shouldn't bother = supporting > > platforms that are no longer supported by their original issuers. >=20 > While I agree with this, by and large, there can be good reasons not = to > follow this rule when we disagree with the issuers. >=20 > > For example, starting in 2014 we no longer needed to bother to = support > > IRIX, because SGI no longer supported IRIX. >=20 > This a good example: I think SGI made a pretty good effort of = supporting > IRIX for as long as it could make sense, so I'm fine with dropping = IRIX > support at the same time as SGI. >=20 > > As I understand it, Apple itself supports only the last three or = four macOS > > versions. >=20 > Note that the issue is not really software support but hardware = support: > Apple is pretty aggressive about dropping support for old hardware in > its newer OSes. They could make OSX 10.11 work on my old macmini but > decided it would be counterproductive for their business. Jean-Christophe Helary ----------------------------------------------- http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune --Apple-Mail=_F8D086DE-96EB-4CBA-97F1-813B5E25E630 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Mar 26, 2018, at 14:41, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not a big fan of Apple either, but do use it (primarily = because employers are more willing to support/allow Apple than Linux and = I just can't do windows, so lesser of two evils really). 

However, I have upgraded = my old mac mini to High Sierra with no problems. I can't remember when I = actually purchased it, but from vague memory, it originally came with = mountain lion, so that would be 10.8

I believe 10.12/10.13 are supposed to = be supported on all mac mini, imac and macbooks from 2009 models = onwards.  My macmini is slow, but it was always slow. I do run = Emacs on it.

The good thing about Apple hardware is that it is = very robust. I still have 15+ years old PPC machines that work = flawlessly. If there is a need to draw a line in the sand somewhere it = should either be the OS version that first supported intel/32bits *only* = or the one that first supported intel/64bits *only*. I'm not sure which = is which though.

(@Tim: if you need = some speed, think of changing your hard disk to an SSD disk, my 2011 MBP = has rejuvenated a way that I never though possible thank to = that.)

Jean-Christophe 


Tim

P.S. I also will be putting Debian on my Mini at the end of = this year. 


On 26 = March 2018 at 13:14, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> = Generally speaking Emacs and other GNU projects shouldn't bother = supporting
> platforms that are no longer supported by their original = issuers.

While I agree with this, by and large, there can be good reasons = not to
follow this rule when we disagree with the issuers.

> For example, starting in 2014 we no longer needed to bother to = support
> IRIX, because SGI no longer supported IRIX.

This a good example: I think SGI made a pretty good effort of = supporting
IRIX for as long as it could make sense, so I'm fine with dropping = IRIX
support at the same time as SGI.

> As I understand it, Apple itself supports only the last three or = four macOS
> versions.

Note that the issue is not really software support but hardware = support:
Apple is pretty aggressive about dropping support for old hardware in
its newer OSes.  They could make OSX 10.11 work on my old macmini = but
decided it would be counterproductive for their business.


Jean-Christophe Helary
-----------------------------------------------
http://mac4translators.blogspot.com @brandelune


= --Apple-Mail=_F8D086DE-96EB-4CBA-97F1-813B5E25E630--