From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Kelly Dean" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Rant - Emacs mail is not user friendly Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 10:06:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87mw7qvign.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1416231470 30210 80.91.229.3 (17 Nov 2014 13:37:50 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 13:37:50 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 17 14:37:43 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XqMUv-0003dU-Mg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 14:37:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47952 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XqMUu-0001QC-MH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:37:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38555) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XqJGo-00082j-Ko for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:11:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XqJGe-0000k3-H7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:10:54 -0500 Original-Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([2001:4b98:c:538::197]:46479) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XqJGe-0000jz-5k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 05:10:44 -0500 Original-Received: from mfilter8-d.gandi.net (mfilter8-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.137]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A4541C0D8; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:10:43 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter8-d.gandi.net Original-Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.197]) by mfilter8-d.gandi.net (mfilter8-d.gandi.net [10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fTdY6hsrY7bP; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:10:41 +0100 (CET) X-Originating-IP: 73.169.42.166 Original-Received: from localhost (c-73-169-42-166.hsd1.co.comcast.net [73.169.42.166]) (Authenticated sender: kelly@prtime.org) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 30DD341C0C3; Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:10:39 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87mw7qvign.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4b98:c:538::197 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 08:37:37 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:177401 Archived-At: Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > You have evidence for Emacs being used in that way by crackers? No. > agree with you that Emacs that has an attack surface that amounts to > the whole world, and practically, that securing it is too hard to > think about succeeding, but that's not a popular view on this list. Securing Emacs isn't necessary. Just don't connect it to an untrusted net= work, and don't use it to interpret any untrusted data much more complex = than plain text. This doesn't unreasonably limit its functionality; mail = delivery can still be done using a separate program that only has access = to an outbox directory that Emacs writes to, mail receipt can still be do= ne using a separate program that only has access to an inbox directory th= at Emacs reads from, web browser bookmark and workspace management can be= done in Emacs by just feeding URLs and commands to a browser running in = a separate virtual machine that does have Internet access, etc. > An excellent analysis, indeed. So why did you choose an excessively > complex program apparently designed for a different workflow, aka > feedmail.el, to do step 2? Because I thought feedmail was responsible for everything that happens wh= en I tell Emacs to send a message, including adding headers and encoding = attachments and making the message ready for sending to an SMTP server, l= eaving just steps #3 and #4 for me to do separately. So I went to set up it, and it became progressively more frustrating unti= l it goaded me into rant-spamming emacs-devel, though my lack of sleep an= d overconsumption of pumpkin pie may have had some influence too. Then I = discovered that the headers are added and attachments are encoded before = the message gets to feedmail, so I gladly dumped feedmail and just wrote = a bit of glue to delete the mail-header-separator, save the message to my= outbox, and delete the draft. > Just save the message using write-file, > with a little extra Lisp to construct an appropriate queuefile name > and to remove MUA artifacts like the header delimiter line. Add a > tiny shell function to do 3 and 4. This amount of Lisp would probably > cost less keystrokes and thinking overall, although a bit more design, > than configuring feedmail. Er, yes, that's exactly what I did, and I included the code in my message= that you just replied to. My request to the Emacs devs about this now just is: please banish feedma= il from mention in the manual, or at least add a =E2=80=9Fhere be dragons= =E2=80=9D warning.