From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Motif support Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:14:39 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83fsqlzyxo.fsf@gnu.org> <837dbxzv6x.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1a4wnay.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4628"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: xenodasein@tutanota.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 22 20:16:32 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n076E-0000sx-14 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Dec 2021 20:16:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49040 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n076C-0006pF-Iq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:282822 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Arthur Miller >> Cc: xenodasein@tutanota.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 18:26:41 +0100 >> >> Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> >> Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 18:58:18 +0100 (CET) >> >> From: xenodasein@tutanota.de >> >> Cc: Emacs Devel >> >> >> >> If I wanted to work on something like --with-x-toolkit=no but pretty and >> >> customizable, using simple software rendering to run on all platforms, >> >> is this something desirable? >> > >> > I don't think I understand what that means in practice. GUI >> > programming for drawing is inherently system-dependent; for example, >> > the --with-x-toolkit=no build uses Xlib calls all over the place. Can >> > you explain how something like that can work on all platforms? >> >> Games usually do all GUI drawing themselves. > > So you are saying that so should we?? I'm not devil's advocate nor your enemy Eli. I don't say Emacs should do this or that because someone else is doing it, or just to say it. What I try to say is that it is possible to do gui on it's own. Emacs is not a typical gui application anyway; it is not full of dialogs and views and what not. Menus, toolbar and scrollbar are not very hard to do without external toolkit, and since this thread took up that Emacs talks to numerous toolkits, it may be pointed out that doing own thing might be a simplification of the code base. >> Doesn't gdk/gtk use Cairo >> to render it's own gui on a surface so they are not dependent on any OS toolkit? > > Did you look at, for example, the MS-Windows back-end of the Cairo > port to Windows? Not really. I am quite sure they need to talk to the OS at some point, but that is different to rely on OS to render menus and buttons, or just low level stuff to open a window or blit ssurfaces. >> Blender for example also uses this approach to render entire GUI in the >> application, and just uses low level stuff from the OS to open a window and >> obtain drawing contexts, to deal with input, keyboard, mouse and such, but gui >> elements such as buttons and menus are created and managed by Blender itself. > > I don't understand what you are saying. Should we use GTK or should > we reinvent its code inside Emacs? Emacs uses just small subset of Gtk, doesn't it? So if it wasn't for the look & feel, as you said in some opening mail, because people want Emacs to look and feel as the rest of the platform, Emacs wouldn't really need it? I don't say you should use neither this or that. Emacs could probaly use only Gtk to render it's gui on all platforms and remove other gui paths. This thread was about Emacs talking to many different toolkits and someone suggesting that situation could be simplified. I try to come med input, but as I see, Motif is still important to someone. Is there Athena backend somewhere still viable :)? I am not trying to be devil't advocate, or annoying, I just believe that code base would be easier to work and experiment with without so many different paths.