From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Arthur Miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 07:04:43 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> <877cpfybhf.fsf@yahoo.com> <873503y66i.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22486"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 06 12:42:32 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qdpzT-0005WG-15 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 12:42:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdpyd-0005Z7-9X; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 06:41:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdkik-0004Qu-JD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 01:04:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-he1eur04olkn2054.outbound.protection.outlook.com ([40.92.73.54] helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qdkif-000083-2g; Wed, 06 Sep 2023 01:04:51 -0400 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Qg4izKanBIjvp+rdMY5olKb9XF6h4tFz98UQq4S0jQRVtJ2N7BpAo/O162PE0DLJS85M0chaEjNXMG0beE+RkPTCd0SOrFstXrBYnRC02ZYITknpiHbWcAq3LDG5Cb+JvlwfsFXivg5sH9U6g+NTbubJBE1ESEg7vRo5WRdzSEcqkA711kWRsaPURXal2/8DNRXw0KBnI4hIpxmw5t6TpYcyzGn4ctsu5ujbSZ+jvzOZX/WluhiDepFc+8kyiH1V8FZPJOIqiUC7bRKd2BM4fb++S1TZuJWF8poz00PkQ/UJF5fDP1yxjHv9n640KvnpOhgqiL7dM9IgFVLhU6Z0mg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=yy6sOCsJtPdP15NKkyTBQKbh+Bji6fN0Ji9rbD5AQ1U=; b=TtlP/Q+tFQtgNsnm+kRY4wqnilkxnsC4iKphiaAbRLxcfBHFYT17H/8DrXqvzdnLoJtPuRQzA3G4xIYgFj/DYNu7rYworHUxbfCFr9m9omuhFBAbEurmq4mIcrNOMDS1Fjur/63NNzouHuR0SV2REpinCTtd+o68ezw4lOylO11CMVsgE0fvpr1MgLtiMxCJgd6eIYyo8rJEQK1oI3/zwFRIHS20WLzmSqjKu2+44KVd9s/jO9uc/LmtgH5XVEb65UqV75d8QuHAqHJl3t7iOCY4ASS0yfXlVYg7r6GyFUmx1ImY0HjnTChU0z0L3mfnVVS6Qb0Siz35lmyh5QQFCA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=none; dmarc=none; dkim=none; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=live.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=yy6sOCsJtPdP15NKkyTBQKbh+Bji6fN0Ji9rbD5AQ1U=; b=rec09tGAX7jRFvX816wIA7lii7gtzSUXgLIcs3V7xUvcaTGdasfgfQ00KplBMRfLgbXcgRhVn6GIDt7m9uj4Cu/Y+bEHmxHFeLLsIKH76+fcEM+GsAEYpzwxAhCh3Dwn/ow3wQBUc4ZfzY6SXbl+SIB6vIVwJKcw0T4cqbWQ6vEqRYVsxjJYr8wcW6UBc8fMF01n0sWvapO3FCneSaMEDUrdPmoybY4HWsf3a8alhfWi/j5UlQI27f7dtUgokledfaJE7cvhEsehmjNuXnm3wa2Ha+ebSA6vtKIFmoJ/1hMXjHaRHw6bNmdkz6o4ypOK9Ij1D8wJiVFHjOIxEmw7sA== Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) by AS8PR09MB6164.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:5ba::10) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6745.34; Wed, 6 Sep 2023 05:04:45 +0000 Original-Received: from AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::df56:b1b1:64b1:6122]) by AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::df56:b1b1:64b1:6122%7]) with mapi id 15.20.6745.034; Wed, 6 Sep 2023 05:04:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Tue, 05 Sep 2023 20:58:46 -0400") X-TMN: [XGg+pklNrcSb8PSXgWv8qykiCqmmzRfV4/M8DA2eQ8Q=] X-ClientProxiedBy: MM0P280CA0089.SWEP280.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:190:8::32) To AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:20b:304::20) X-Microsoft-Original-Message-ID: <87ledjc2ok.fsf@live.com> X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM9PR09MB4977:EE_|AS8PR09MB6164:EE_ X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d431a3ef-7620-4a96-d084-08dbae96c931 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?us-ascii?Q?KoQxF6gTe2UFjnQQeEM/rZyapNKS1fymlJtDVG+xVEwL5nFMrKviCPZgm7EB?= =?us-ascii?Q?P6ukkT5ifiRmeRDvS51YeNHWuF2nj/RZ882JtK8M3PjY+2QdS3AtN5j9t3CQ?= =?us-ascii?Q?tr4YCmLZ+AbHS8Boxt1uyype7kFKxV16x272+hYtEeed41LbsTebuXMdZCB5?= =?us-ascii?Q?XV1d21hSJmy3xoUBGx3f2wAFe/uHSK9ZcRACWQPDnZT6+aEprNTjUrA/YGwU?= =?us-ascii?Q?VJBWZ8kvKKyDFz5RL5da7hkKkJrl9mMlFuDLNsAtEpcN/cr0ejl6gH2J8tcq?= =?us-ascii?Q?H1Ycy7nX5Bs4W3vZSp7Y+y6fVd1fbh/mhT7rOZeJOym/Nkvsj1J3tg/JmQyc?= =?us-ascii?Q?/52YYBWHR4dooakjIkp/TFYvlxI7G8hNn9TOKlENa1sLqaZE1tgK2oXKJrQy?= =?us-ascii?Q?nFrlK19hIKJvjf+iUXeEAshTv9m8CI3Mx8w4sNZMFdDLN6BQVjtaSbEGWH0q?= =?us-ascii?Q?T4Goa39AswUbz+GHDFFOAAxQTHJnbXviC29P9QWDWs+ar+8v2S9TDYdmwuTm?= =?us-ascii?Q?RzRDz7+J9suhPhf6Rp2XnBbCK6c+zOV2qIXSQTHv0o1WXj8u6q8f9Md1p0tt?= =?us-ascii?Q?VoEv+apmBpzJp3RYaZMFwrT0nYK0IonnkCgL46WbakTpkWDsqGakQBSkUMWi?= =?us-ascii?Q?Y4 X-OriginatorOrg: sct-15-20-4755-11-msonline-outlook-64da6.templateTenant X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d431a3ef-7620-4a96-d084-08dbae96c931 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Sep 2023 05:04:45.3501 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AS8PR09MB6164 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=40.92.73.54; envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 06 Sep 2023 06:41:37 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310180 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Would you please stop arguing for rewriting Emacs in Common Lisp? It > > is a non-starter. > > > It would be an enormouse job -- including rewriting the Emacs Lisp > > Referance Manual. > > Also, there are aspects of Common Lisp which i rejected as clumsy and With all respect to you, but sound to me like an emotional argument, not a rational one. I don't know why you reject them as clumsy, but why does it matter to us if a tool includes features we don't use? I don't know if I understand it correctly, but CL was made so other Lisps can be abstracted on top of it; so we use those features to abstract stuff on top of those lengthy verbose functions? In other words we can hide those keyword params behind elispy abstractions if we don't like them? > best avoided. Why are they best avoided? Is there some technical reason or is it psychological? > best avoided. All those keyword arguments! I intentionally excluded > tham from Emacs and I am not going to let them in. I don't want to be impolite, but they are already in; via cl-lib.el.