From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: arthur miller Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Docs for &optional and &rest arguments together Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 20:01:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87o8icq958.fsf@gnus.org> <877doyoa9g.fsf@gnus.org> <20201231112634.GA5158@tuxteam.de>> < , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM0PR06MB6577BCB614985C4BCE5D8D5E96D60AM0PR06MB6577eurp_" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4767"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Drew Adams , "tomas@tuxteam.de" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 31 21:03:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kv4A8-00017F-8C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; 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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -6 X-Spam_score: -0.7 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_DOTEDU=1.997 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262199 Archived-At: --_000_AM0PR06MB6577BCB614985C4BCE5D8D5E96D60AM0PR06MB6577eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of all best ladies deserves attentio= n, and I certainly have no need to read references to CL standards and hist= orical mailings etc. Whatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want and document what t= hey want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation which can be bett= er. But it's not lack of attention, if you actually reflect over what I said, i= nstead of who said it, maybe you will see it too. Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next year! -------- Originalmeddelande -------- Fr=E5n: Drew Adams Datum: 2020-12-31 19:19 (GMT+01:00) Till: arthur miller , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel= @gnu.org =C4mne: RE: Docs for &optional and &rest arguments together > I have glanced through though, maybe I am missing it. Don't just glance. Give it the attention that it and your understanding bot= h deserve. If that CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit dow= n, take it slowly, and reread carefully. Both the Elisp doc and the CL doc about this are clear and complete, I thin= k. I suggest with respect that you're maybe just not paying enough attentio= n. Don't be in a hurry. The info is there; just give it a chance - and another= read. The CL link is not documentation, it is an essay, entire novel :-). But int= erestingly, that do not touch on that case either . I have glanced through = though, maybe I am missing it. > > I don't read it says both c and d are required > > when &rest is also used. > > You just have to squint the other way .-) > They are not "required". They are provided -- in the call. It's just > that c is served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e: If someone finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists, I recommend consulting the Common Lisp doc (CLTL2) about it. Common Lisp lambda lists allow more stuff (&keys, &aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp has (&optional, &rest) the behavior is the same. The language in CLTL2 is quite precise. It too merits being read carefully, but I think it spells things out quite clearly. This is the section about lambda lists, which covers &optional and &rest: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION009220000= 00000000000 With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread, I think things will become more clear. HTH. --_000_AM0PR06MB6577BCB614985C4BCE5D8D5E96D60AM0PR06MB6577eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is New Year Eve Drew. The best lady of all best ladies deserves attentio= n, and I certainly have no need to read references to CL standards and hist= orical mailings etc.

Whatever CL does, who cares, they can do what they want a= nd document what they want. I am pointing at a piece of Elisp documentation= which can be better.

But it's not lack of attention, if you actually reflect o= ver what I said, instead of who said it, maybe you will see it too. 

Happy New Year, I wish you all best in next year!


-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Datum: 2020-12-31 19:19 (GMT+01:00)
Till: arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com>, tomas@tuxteam.de, = emacs-devel@gnu.org
=C4mne: RE: Docs for &optional and &rest arguments together

> I have glanced through though, maybe I am missi= ng it.

 

Don't just glance. Give it the attention that it and your understanding both de= serve. If that CL doc didn't help you then I really suggest you sit down, t= ake it slowly, and reread carefully.

 

Both the Elisp doc and the CL = doc about this are clear and complete, I think. I suggest with respect that= you're maybe just not paying enough attention.

 

Don't be in a hurry. The info = is there; just give it a chance - and another read.

 

The CL link is not documentation, it is an essay, en= tire novel :-). But interestingly, that do not touch on that case either . = I have glanced through though, maybe I am missing it.

 

> > I don't read it says both c and d are required
> > when &rest is also used.
>
> You just have to squint the other way .-)
> They are not "required". They are provided -- in the call. I= t's just
> that c is served first, d next, and all the rest (if any) goes to e:
If someone finds the Elisp doc about lambda lists,
I recommend consulting the Common Lisp doc (CLTL2)
about it.  Common Lisp lambda lists allow more stuff
(&keys, &aux etc.), but for the things that Elisp
has (&optional, &rest) the behavior is the same.

The language in CLTL2 is quite precise.  It too
merits being read carefully, but I think it spells
things out quite clearly.

This is the section about lambda lists, which covers
&optional and &rest:

https://www.cs= .cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node64.html#SECTION00922000000000000000

With that, plus the Elisp doc, plus this thread,
I think things will become more clear.  HTH.

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