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envelope-from=arthur.miller@live.com; helo=EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-tangents@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs news and miscellaneous discussions outside the scope of other Emacs mailing lists List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-tangents-bounces+get-emacs-tangents=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-tangents" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.tangents:558 Archived-At: --_000_AM0PR06MB657785E1DF6867587206066496AC0AM0PR06MB6577eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Again how did you think this will work in practice? What you are effectively saying is that GNU software can not mention non-GN= J software and can not be used to read/find or in any way interact with non= GNU software. Thus Eli or anyone else can not use any piece of GNU software to read or in= teract with non free software since non free software can't even be mention= ed by GNU software. If effect Eli would have to use non-free software to fi= nd information about non-free software. I am not sure you really mean it yourself that way of if you are aware of w= hat you are saying. You are limit GNU software to be an isolated island. ________________________________ Fr=E5n: Alfred M. Szmidt Skickat: den 8 januari 2021 18:22 Till: Eli Zaretskii Kopia: dgutov@yandex.ru ; bugs@gnu.support ; arthur.miller@live.com ; rms@gnu.org ; ulm@gentoo.org ; emacs-tangents@gnu.org =C4mne: Re: [ELPA] New package: repology.el > From: "Alfred M. Szmidt" > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, bugs@gnu.support, arthur.miller@live.com, > rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emacs-tangents@gnu.org > Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 16:07:13 -0500 > > > You are exagerating. Nobody is saying don't do research, I'm qui= te > > sure you are capable of finding that information on your own. Bu= t it > > is a different thing for GNU do provide that information for you. > > But GNU software shouldn't help me in research? > > In the research of non-free software, obviously no. And that is a serious problem, because GNU maintainers need to do that quite frequently, as part of their job they do for GNU. As a GNU maintainer you can use other venues to find that information, again nobody is stopping _you_. But the GNU _project_ or GNU _software_ is not there to help you find non-free software. I do not understand what is so confusing here, how you as a person (in the capacity of a mainainter or not) wish to figure out stuff and what the GNU project links to are two entierly orthogonal issues. Its like asking why the GNU project doesn't provide information about finding good polka candy recipies, its outside the scope of the project (ignoring the issue that non-free software being immoral and unethical). And other software users and professionals are likely to do that as well, in order to study software algorithms and implementations. Let me remind you that (AFAIK) one of the main reasons for starting GNU was the inability to share ideas about software design and implementation, due to commercial entities' enforcement of a system where showing the code was prohibited. It would be ironic if the GNU project prevented its followers from exercising the same freedom, by denying us the information about where to find that source code to begin with. It doesn't prevent anyone from doing any kind of research, it is just not the place for GNU to help you in doing said research. There have been lists (e.g., the high priority list) of functionality which is lacking on free operating systems -- sometimes even mentioning very well known non-free software we (the project) wishes to replace. But when the program is unknown, one can simply list the features one wishes a program to have and not give it the extra promotion. Since if we say that a program has no free software counter part, it would be quite normal for someone to go decide that they will install the non-free program until such a day. And that would be working against the goal. --_000_AM0PR06MB657785E1DF6867587206066496AC0AM0PR06MB6577eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Again how did you think this will work in practice?

What you are effectively saying is that GNU software can not mention non-GN= J software and can not be used to read/find or in any way interact with non= GNU software.
Thus Eli or anyone else can not use any piece of GNU software to read or in= teract with non free software since non free software can't even be mention= ed by GNU software. If effect Eli would have to use non-free software to fi= nd information about non-free software.

I am not sure you really mean it yourself that way of if you are aware of w= hat you are saying.

You are limit GNU software to be an isolated island.
Fr=E5n: Alfred M. Szmidt = <ams@gnu.org>
Skickat: den 8 januari 2021 18:22
Till: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Kopia: dgutov@yandex.ru <dgutov@yandex.ru>; bugs@gnu.support &= lt;bugs@gnu.support>; arthur.miller@live.com <arthur.miller@live.com&= gt;; rms@gnu.org <rms@gnu.org>; ulm@gentoo.org <ulm@gentoo.org>= ; emacs-tangents@gnu.org <emacs-tangents@gnu.org>
=C4mne: Re: [ELPA] New package: repology.el
 

   > From: "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>    > Cc: eliz@gnu.org, bugs@gnu.support, arthur.miller@live.co= m,
   >     rms@gnu.org, ulm@gentoo.org, emac= s-tangents@gnu.org
   > Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2021 16:07:13 -0500
   >
   >    > You are exagerating.  Nobody = is saying don't do research, I'm quite
   >    > sure you are capable of finding th= at information on your own.  But it
   >    > is a different thing for GNU do pr= ovide that information for you.
   >
   >    But GNU software shouldn't help me in r= esearch?
   >
   > In the research of non-free software, obviously no.

   And that is a serious problem, because GNU maintainers need to= do that
   quite frequently, as part of their job they do for GNU.

As a GNU maintainer you can use other venues to find that information,
again nobody is stopping _you_.  But the GNU _project_ or GNU
_software_ is not there to help you find non-free software.

I do not understand what is so confusing here, how you as a person (in
the capacity of a mainainter or not) wish to figure out stuff and what
the GNU project links to are two entierly orthogonal issues. 

Its like asking why the GNU project doesn't provide information about
finding good polka candy recipies, its outside the scope of the
project (ignoring the issue that non-free software being immoral and
unethical).

   And other software users and professionals are likely to do th= at as
   well, in order to study software algorithms and implementation= s.  Let
   me remind you that (AFAIK) one of the main reasons for startin= g GNU
   was the inability to share ideas about software design and
   implementation, due to commercial entities' enforcement of a s= ystem
   where showing the code was prohibited.  It would be ironi= c if the GNU
   project prevented its followers from exercising the same freed= om, by
   denying us the information about where to find that source cod= e to
   begin with.

It doesn't prevent anyone from doing any kind of research, it is just
not the place for GNU to help you in doing said research.  There have<= br> been lists (e.g., the high priority list) of functionality which is
lacking on free operating systems -- sometimes even mentioning very
well known non-free software we (the project) wishes to replace.

But when the program is unknown, one can simply list the features one
wishes a program to have and not give it the extra promotion.  Since if we say that a program has no free software counter part, it would
be quite normal for someone to go decide that they will install the
non-free program until such a day.  And that would be working against<= br> the goal.

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