From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:41:24 +0200 Message-ID: References: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278898917 20165 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 01:41:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 01:41:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lennart Borgman , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 03:41:56 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY81r-0005QD-Ec for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:41:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47934 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OY81q-0008In-PH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:41:54 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=57837 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OY81k-0008Gh-B8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:41:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY81i-00022K-V4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:41:48 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-bw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41]:40110) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OY81i-000224-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 21:41:46 -0400 Original-Received: by bwz9 with SMTP id 9so2648269bwz.0 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xtbDKQapaiMQYTMSjy6OzJBpLQkvynfMGH4NFARNWTA=; b=JiZQ6GcBp1SdxEu3qcggKeLsJq7F8TZ2k9QXf/iZBe1PJxwHdh+Wy1n4uu+wFomJqO 08+su5DV9vFKjNg55co+3JQg3FqyfvvggFyQnPXO98CBsVtwiimBJMz/lhKx3aJo86e8 Ifaus5N8kCMCXk6q34irSKAEnkGRFCNOcs+xA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=uUbeQLUR/sia2aR0JBzKoa26/qxFWRIFnj86uvJkI9BZcsZR23kbEHkUrEVmVDBufu v4KsUm1Eh+IH71OnbnWkz7LhEllfzDMC5gjWpya40omr4zUmbY65AJsNqoyKefnQhEMf zVzE2pf47CzpB9ZIGpZnvN4yTrq85p366y7kY= Original-Received: by 10.204.2.139 with SMTP id 11mr9787189bkj.202.1278898904237; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.204.53.204 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 18:41:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127079 Archived-At: On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 02:23, Stephen J. Turnbull wro= te: > That's not the feeling I get at all. Well, there were a couple times when I was in contact with him (I mean, I was really trying to help him get some code into Emacs), and that's the feeling I got. If your experience, from the times you've tried to help him (or mentor him, as you later describe) is different, lucky you. > Lennart has had *multiple* experiences where > he has submitted working code, communications over the integration > break down, and his code was refused, without anybody ever doing more > than looking at it and saying "that can't work" (usually with a > theoretical rationale that for whatever reason Lennart doesn't get). I cannot argue that what you said has not happened, because I sure am not going to go re-reading all these old threads. But certainly there's been more than a few times when nobody said "can't work", more like "please do the work", only to hear back "oh, that's a lot of time I don't have right now, just do it yourself". Followed by complains later on when nobody took on the invitation (which is what really irks me; I can understand he not wanting to do it, but not his complaining about others not doing it for him). > It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels > so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor > somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make > submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only > minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. What you describe as "can't work" interactions I'd describe as "take time out to mentor". So far the answer has no been encouraging. > I think > in this case the proposed change is such an obvious winner that it's > only Emacs-side stubbornness that prevents it from being implemented. Really? Is just that? How nice that you can so fully understand people's motives (and minds) to know that's the only thing that's happened. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma