keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

[Xah Lee]

  Uday Reddy wrote:
 > Microsoft never made any complete systems.  They started out as 
sellers of
 > compilers and made their name as the *suppliers* of DOS to IBM.  When 
IBM's
 > monopoly ended and the PC became an open architecture, they became 
suppliers to
 > us.  So, they do not have ownership of the PC or the keyboard that 
goes with
 > it.  Their assertion of ownership to a pair of modifier keys, whose 
idea has
 > been long in existence before their birth even, is illegitimate.


the way i'm guessing how the Win logo became common in PC keyboard is this:

Microsoft invented the key and logo (probably influenced by Apple), and 
place it on the keyboard they manufacture, as well integrated in their 
OS for use of that key. Perhaps in a year or two, other keyboard 
manufactures, in competition with Microsoft's hardware department, also 
wanted to have that key, because MS's OS is very popular.

i'm not sure if there's anything explicitly sinister about how it came 
to became so popular.

keyboard manufactures do not have to make keyboard with that key or 
logo. Daz, Happy Hacker keyboards, Optimus, Kinesis, sell versions of 
keyboard that don't have the win logo. ( photo & link: 
http://xahlee.org/emacs/keyboards_hacker_idiocy.html )

though it'd be nice if someone knows about this history and tell us.

  Xah

Re: keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

[Uday S Reddy]

On 8/14/2010 10:22 PM, Xah Lee wrote:

> the way i'm guessing how the Win logo became common in PC keyboard is this:
>
> Microsoft invented the key and logo (probably influenced by Apple), and place
> it on the keyboard they manufacture, as well integrated in their OS for use of
> that key. Perhaps in a year or two, other keyboard manufactures, in competition
> with Microsoft's hardware department, also wanted to have that key, because
> MS's OS is very popular.

Well, at the time (Microsoft natural keyboard in 1994 and the first successful 
Windows build in 1995), Microsoft's OS wasn't exactly "popular".  Many 
corporations were using Mac's, and Microsoft had to wean them back to the PC.

Yes, it is plausible that Microsoft introduced the windows key in its own 
keyboard and probably copied Apple in doing so.  (This is by no means the 
biggest thing they copied from Apple in the 90's!).

However, the windows key in its original form was just a start button.  Notice 
this in your own picture.

   http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/ms_natural_keyboard.html

I found the O'Reilly "Windows 95 in a Nutshell" guide on my bookshelf (still!) 
and verified that invoking the start menu was all that the windows key did 
originally.  I remember going, "why do they have such a silly key in such a 
strategic location?"

So, you can understand my disrespect for the Microsoft windows key.  Not only 
was it copied from Apple (as we are guessing), but also rather stupidly copied. 
  Now, it is possible that the Microsoft's keyboard division (which was quite 
good) and the Windows division (which was trying hard to catch up) were out of 
sync and the stupidity wasn't intentional.  It is also possible that Microsoft 
just found an opportunity to push its brand and used it.

> i'm not sure if there's anything explicitly sinister about how it came to
> became so popular.

If you have read any of the documents in the Microsoft antitrust case, you will 
definitely change your mind about the "sinister" bit.  Microsoft bullied a 
whole industry into submission.  Yes, a keyboard manufacturer doesn't have to 
put the windows key or logo, but if they posed a threat to Microsoft dominance, 
Microsoft knew how to bring them in line.

------

Coming back to the point of discussion, since Microsoft never designed complete 
systems like Apple did, their OS and keyboard are loosely coupled.  One doesn't 
have to use the windows key to use Windows, or to use it effectively.  Since 
the OS cannot depend on the presence of the windows key, it can't put essential 
functions on it, only conveniences.  There is no reason why the users can't use 
it for different purposes if they want to.  And, there is no reason why Emacs 
shouldn't take full control of it to serve its users' needs.

Cheers,
Uday

Re: keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

[Bernardo Barros]

I would buy a simple GNU key to replace the Windows key in my
thinkpad... (if I can replace a simple key from the keyboard, I don't
know if it is possible)


2010/8/16 Uday S Reddy <u.s.reddy@cs.bham.ac.uk>:
> On 8/14/2010 10:22 PM, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>> the way i'm guessing how the Win logo became common in PC keyboard is
>> this:
>>
>> Microsoft invented the key and logo (probably influenced by Apple), and
>> place
>> it on the keyboard they manufacture, as well integrated in their OS for
>> use of
>> that key. Perhaps in a year or two, other keyboard manufactures, in
>> competition
>> with Microsoft's hardware department, also wanted to have that key,
>> because
>> MS's OS is very popular.
>
> Well, at the time (Microsoft natural keyboard in 1994 and the first
> successful Windows build in 1995), Microsoft's OS wasn't exactly "popular".
>  Many corporations were using Mac's, and Microsoft had to wean them back to
> the PC.
>
> Yes, it is plausible that Microsoft introduced the windows key in its own
> keyboard and probably copied Apple in doing so.  (This is by no means the
> biggest thing they copied from Apple in the 90's!).
>
> However, the windows key in its original form was just a start button.
>  Notice this in your own picture.
>
>  http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/ms_natural_keyboard.html
>
> I found the O'Reilly "Windows 95 in a Nutshell" guide on my bookshelf
> (still!) and verified that invoking the start menu was all that the windows
> key did originally.  I remember going, "why do they have such a silly key in
> such a strategic location?"
>
> So, you can understand my disrespect for the Microsoft windows key.  Not
> only was it copied from Apple (as we are guessing), but also rather stupidly
> copied.  Now, it is possible that the Microsoft's keyboard division (which
> was quite good) and the Windows division (which was trying hard to catch up)
> were out of sync and the stupidity wasn't intentional.  It is also possible
> that Microsoft just found an opportunity to push its brand and used it.
>
>> i'm not sure if there's anything explicitly sinister about how it came to
>> became so popular.
>
> If you have read any of the documents in the Microsoft antitrust case, you
> will definitely change your mind about the "sinister" bit.  Microsoft
> bullied a whole industry into submission.  Yes, a keyboard manufacturer
> doesn't have to put the windows key or logo, but if they posed a threat to
> Microsoft dominance, Microsoft knew how to bring them in line.
>
> ------
>
> Coming back to the point of discussion, since Microsoft never designed
> complete systems like Apple did, their OS and keyboard are loosely coupled.
>  One doesn't have to use the windows key to use Windows, or to use it
> effectively.  Since the OS cannot depend on the presence of the windows key,
> it can't put essential functions on it, only conveniences.  There is no
> reason why the users can't use it for different purposes if they want to.
>  And, there is no reason why Emacs shouldn't take full control of it to
> serve its users' needs.
>
> Cheers,
> Uday
>
>
>

Re: keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

[Bernardo Barros]

BTW that's the only proprietary-related piece in my system, but it's
hardware not software at least

2010/8/16 Bernardo Barros <bernardobarros2@gmail.com>:
> I would buy a simple GNU key to replace the Windows key in my
> thinkpad... (if I can replace a simple key from the keyboard, I don't
> know if it is possible)
>
>
> 2010/8/16 Uday S Reddy <u.s.reddy@cs.bham.ac.uk>:
>> On 8/14/2010 10:22 PM, Xah Lee wrote:
>>
>>> the way i'm guessing how the Win logo became common in PC keyboard is
>>> this:
>>>
>>> Microsoft invented the key and logo (probably influenced by Apple), and
>>> place
>>> it on the keyboard they manufacture, as well integrated in their OS for
>>> use of
>>> that key. Perhaps in a year or two, other keyboard manufactures, in
>>> competition
>>> with Microsoft's hardware department, also wanted to have that key,
>>> because
>>> MS's OS is very popular.
>>
>> Well, at the time (Microsoft natural keyboard in 1994 and the first
>> successful Windows build in 1995), Microsoft's OS wasn't exactly "popular".
>>  Many corporations were using Mac's, and Microsoft had to wean them back to
>> the PC.
>>
>> Yes, it is plausible that Microsoft introduced the windows key in its own
>> keyboard and probably copied Apple in doing so.  (This is by no means the
>> biggest thing they copied from Apple in the 90's!).
>>
>> However, the windows key in its original form was just a start button.
>>  Notice this in your own picture.
>>
>>  http://xahlee.org/emacs/ms_keyboard/ms_natural_keyboard.html
>>
>> I found the O'Reilly "Windows 95 in a Nutshell" guide on my bookshelf
>> (still!) and verified that invoking the start menu was all that the windows
>> key did originally.  I remember going, "why do they have such a silly key in
>> such a strategic location?"
>>
>> So, you can understand my disrespect for the Microsoft windows key.  Not
>> only was it copied from Apple (as we are guessing), but also rather stupidly
>> copied.  Now, it is possible that the Microsoft's keyboard division (which
>> was quite good) and the Windows division (which was trying hard to catch up)
>> were out of sync and the stupidity wasn't intentional.  It is also possible
>> that Microsoft just found an opportunity to push its brand and used it.
>>
>>> i'm not sure if there's anything explicitly sinister about how it came to
>>> became so popular.
>>
>> If you have read any of the documents in the Microsoft antitrust case, you
>> will definitely change your mind about the "sinister" bit.  Microsoft
>> bullied a whole industry into submission.  Yes, a keyboard manufacturer
>> doesn't have to put the windows key or logo, but if they posed a threat to
>> Microsoft dominance, Microsoft knew how to bring them in line.
>>
>> ------
>>
>> Coming back to the point of discussion, since Microsoft never designed
>> complete systems like Apple did, their OS and keyboard are loosely coupled.
>>  One doesn't have to use the windows key to use Windows, or to use it
>> effectively.  Since the OS cannot depend on the presence of the windows key,
>> it can't put essential functions on it, only conveniences.  There is no
>> reason why the users can't use it for different purposes if they want to.
>>  And, there is no reason why Emacs shouldn't take full control of it to
>> serve its users' needs.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Uday
>>
>>
>>
>

RE: Key bindings proposal

[Xah Lee]

Uday wrote:
 > But I am opposed to commercialization.  The Windows keys were not on
 > the IBM PC keyboard.  Microsoft added them.  They are good modifier
 > keys.  So, I have no problem with Microsoft adding them.  My
 > opposition is to Microsoft branding them, charging royalty to the
 > keyboard manufacturers, and locking up the keys in Windows-specific
 > ways so that they are *not free*.  And, software freedom is what we
 > are here about.  So, it is a surprise to me that the people here don't
 > attack this violation of freedom as vigorously as possible.

not sure this is true, Uday.

Microsoft is also a keyboard manufacture, starting in mid or early 1990s.

i don't know the history of how the Win key/logo got so wide spread, but 
once they made their logo into their own keyboards, and if other 
keyboard makers want to use them, certainly they are subject to licensing.

Apple always has a Apple logo on their keyboards on the Cmd key, only 
about 3 years ago it's officially removed. Those who make 3rd party 
Apple keyboard are subject to licensing fee too, am sure, and probably 
also a royalty.

thinking about this... i think FSF might make a keyboard where the 
Win/Cmd key is a GNU logo. Actually i think that's a good idea because 
the Win logo key on keyboard is a commonly heard complaint from 
GNU/linux programers. Actually i think this is quite a doable market... 
Several kbd makers started to have a cult following due to the fact they 
sell kbds without the win logo, e.g. Daz, Happy Hacking, and are 
frequently buzzed about in programing forums and in gadget review sites.

(Google recently ban'd MS's OS for their employees (google announced it 
from their blog, and subsequently reported all over by news agencies). 
Allegedly, they allow just linux and mac. (if any doesnt know, Google is 
probably the largest user of GNU/linux in the world, not just as 
servers, and they are making their own OS based on GNU/linux called 
Chrome OS) I'd say such a kbd would be popular fairly quickly, 
especially if FSF takes the initiative to create them.)

(PS the Win key and Apple key both send the same keycode am pretty sure. 
This is because you can plug in a PC keyboard to Mac, or Apple kbd to 
PC, and the Win/Apple key functions without any special driver.)

sorry for the diversion... thinking about putting the gnu head as a logo 
on the key... it'll needs to be a streamline version, perhaps a 
silhouette of the gnu head. (am a aficionado of logo artwork and 
computer keyboards, have written perhaps 50 articles on them.)

  Xah

keyboard politics [Was: Key bindings proposal]

[Uday S Reddy]

On 8/14/2010 4:19 PM, Xah Lee wrote:

> Microsoft is also a keyboard manufacture, starting in mid or early 1990s.

If they put their logo on keyboards that they make, that would be 
understandable.  We would have a choice whether to buy those keyboards or not.

> Apple always has a Apple logo on their keyboards on the Cmd key, only about 3
> years ago it's officially removed. Those who make 3rd party Apple keyboard are
> subject to licensing fee too, am sure, and probably also a royalty.

So, you are saying that Microsoft is just copying Apple.  What is the big deal?

Apple is a complete system manufacturer.  They can design their systems 
whichever way they please.  And, people have a choice whether to buy those 
systems or not.

Microsoft never made any complete systems.  They started out as sellers of 
compilers and made their name as the *suppliers* of DOS to IBM.  When IBM's 
monopoly ended and the PC became an open architecture, they became suppliers to 
us.  So, they do not have ownership of the PC or the keyboard that goes with 
it.  Their assertion of ownership to a pair of modifier keys, whose idea has 
been long in existence before their birth even, is illegitimate.

> thinking about this... i think FSF might make a keyboard where the Win/Cmd key
> is a GNU logo. Actually i think that's a good idea because the Win logo key on
> keyboard is a commonly heard complaint from GNU/linux programers. Actually i
> think this is quite a doable market... Several kbd makers started to have a
> cult following due to the fact they sell kbds without the win logo, e.g. Daz,
> Happy Hacking, and are frequently buzzed about in programing forums and in
> gadget review sites.

Sounds quite sensible.  But it would be even more sensible to break the 
Microsoft-branded key in its function, not just in its appearance.

Cheers,
Uday