From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mathias Dahl Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Key bindings proposal Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:16:40 +0200 Message-ID: References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19537.40472.267000.563053@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280560639 19629 80.91.229.12 (31 Jul 2010 07:17:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 07:17:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Teemu Likonen , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Uday S Reddy Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 31 09:17:17 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Of6Jk-0004fv-TV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 09:17:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50867 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Of6Jk-0001LM-67 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 03:17:12 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49562 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Of6Jc-0001LH-Py for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 03:17:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Of6Jb-00080b-MR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 03:17:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:53001) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Of6Jb-00080I-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 03:17:03 -0400 Original-Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so2642194iwn.0 for ; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:17:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0ceRV5x3c1Ty7QgAC9bXfxUkz+2skM2oM8eM4vvObDM=; b=YV3SSAWYjAATiZUnHsUp0F0mlyzsD7ByyV7v9Xh5ncHzApl3YGg5rtqWIiIJlJM42k mgYL4mtDvqLF8nlJIO8SVB2vGV3u8KeOJq7mlL9McapxfYlUyjY2W5Vy6lJ88T3w/Zsx o9qoL/PvL9sntaGVKmBsezko9R/7ho4VwmUG0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=XNDP7YH1L45FcqScbN46cihR7mu+gWbJyca2uyhO3F2XkDHGYK8FQEOKBfXcPZUKAj h/rtjipTs/sUV4Nd2rgMki7vaDcZecsKGZpgurbbnuuOrm11TnS0Xy5Gye65hNDWiTSy WWRiCMUvfHPpz7hAvqPYJ4VnSfyx3o084nMkI= Original-Received: by 10.231.161.73 with SMTP id q9mr3190880ibx.70.1280560621325; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.152.195 with HTTP; Sat, 31 Jul 2010 00:16:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19537.40472.267000.563053@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128044 Archived-At: > function has to be on a key or people won't use it. =A0And the key > combinations keep getting weirder and weirder. =A0Like M-s a C-s to do > an isearch! I just use C-s. In my Emacs the binding you mention does not exist, so it i= s probably a quite new invention. And my guess is that it is there for completeness, someone decided (I did not even know about M-s until now and I have used Emacs since 1997) to keep all search related stuff on M-s and for completeness isearch was placed there too. I assume the idea is to type M-s to get into "search mode" and from there type a few keys to execute the particular search command you want. I agree that the extra "a C-s" lacks a good "flow". Why not just "a s" (what does the "a" stand for?). But, again, isearch has its own top level binding, so most will use that. > It would be a good idea for us to question ourselves why we are so > obsessed with key bindings whereas the rest of the world gets by > perfectly fine with very few key bindings. I have asked myself the same thing. I think in many other programs users use the menus (using the mouse) and/or the toolbar and other widgets. Around me, at work, very few people use the keybindings that do exists in those other programs. They limit themselves to cut, paste, copy, save and new, at tops. > - In most modern OS's, one can navigate menus with keys. =A0Emacs > doesn't use this mode of usage at all. I see very few navigating the menus by keys although I find this to be an excellent replacement when a command does not have its own keybinding. After some tries I learn the path to the command I want so that it in practice gets a keybinding (like M-f s, or whatever). > ... and the menus look totally disorganized. Oh come on. There might be some items that are not where you would expect but to say that the menus look totally disorganized is unfair. Why not suggest a new structure in a new thread? > In principle, this can give us much more "real estate" > to work with, without having to memorize arcane key bindings that make > our fingers twist. M-x is right there, no one forces you to use arcane bindings (I agree that some are, for example those starting with C-@, which is very hard to type on a Swedish keyboard layout) and you can use F10 to reach the menus, or M-x tmm to navigate the menus as text. Or use the mouse (Gaaaah! :) > - We have totally ignored the potential of command names. Oh, have "we"? I use M-x all the time and have learned how to use partial completion to more quickly execute commands with long names. > =A0I can type > `M-x isearch' a lot faster than I can type `M-s a C-s' Again, its there for completeness (my guess anyway). Use C-s instead if this is something you do a lot.