From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:20:44 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa7uu1e.fsf@kanis.fr> <87hbjr9x71.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87d3uf9vb2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279905678 17766 80.91.229.12 (23 Jul 2010 17:21:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:21:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 23 19:21:17 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcLvx-00069J-3R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 19:21:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:39962 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcLvw-0006U8-A5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:21:16 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58420 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OcLvm-0006RU-TG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:21:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcLvl-0001E8-My for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:21:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:34051) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OcLvl-0001Dx-J0; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 13:21:05 -0400 Original-Received: by qwk4 with SMTP id 4so4182666qwk.0 for ; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:21:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zw8Z63YdNNvdhs34RxBCa+ksjo+ronZo2Nal4jc/k9o=; b=Q7kcjWO32siSBfzvKQRHsEA/NRYgKrCCRCqqqYBQUKQ+y/HfuatSgVeFl59N1VZmCZ QBwADQau9OctQgnhULTRDP1NIl5LRk6RuofsJ2WvJDGE87r4A5/Wa6a0pT3T4MmUSSup gy+nsf8cKZQ8m0DO/GKhJ8rij1chgHAB8LpRU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hl/+J4232mTXTU0G8ukY6dwhQes11LO46hbNttnVrUzykyVYLRccaFeeSduuNpbTQ2 1zsjNYu3MGHJAUSu9N74fVMFmBirQEdsTd3P3ukS3oQII3FOnLd+tgZ6mQ1Vz8+jX7bQ oVtNOsssPCZhVxYbIpNdqgJU7rEUyHC3u4obU= Original-Received: by 10.224.116.75 with SMTP id l11mr2803349qaq.300.1279905664300; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.5.72 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Jul 2010 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87d3uf9vb2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127711 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:21 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > David Kastrup writes: > >> "Alfred M. Szmidt" writes: >> >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Advanced users should have no problem adding a single li= ne to their >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> .emacs to switch on the compatibility mode >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> e.g. (enable-classic-bindings) and new users would enjoy= the familiar >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0> CUA-style bindings out of the box. >>> >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0I side with Tom, I wouldn't mind adding one line to my .em= acs in favor >>> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of easing new users experience. >>> >>> There is absolutley no proof that CUA would 'ease' a new users >>> experience; there is proof that it would make make the experience >>> harder for all who are accustomed to emacs though. Of course there are evidence that CUA would make it easier in some respect for new users. They would immediately be able to use the CUA keys. >> I don't see that adding mode-, selection- and keypress-timing dependent >> behavior in order to arrive at something that magically works half the >> time like Notepad, half the time like Emacs, does much to make an >> editing application more accessible to a new user. Emacs is already mode dependent since it is using keybindings with several steps. > To illustrate: do we really want to consider the following a suitable > user experience for new users? =C2=A0Once they type more than 5 keys per > second, CUA behavior will get replaced by native Emacs behavior? =C2=A0Th= at > sort of cleverness is not predictable to a new user. This is an excellent example of Kim's creativity to work around the resistance to adopt CUA bindings in Emacs. Of course this work around is not needed any more of CUA would be made a first class citizen in Emacs. It actually does not get in the way that often, but it is still disturbing. I think Kim was aware of this because he gave another way to work around the problem with C-c and C-x in Emacs: You can add a shift to those keys if you want to old Emacs behavior: C-S-c and C-S-x. (I always use this variant when it is necessary.) > This is supposed to be an editor, not an arcade game. =C2=A0And no, I don= 't > think that this sort of user interface problem can be solved by > discussing the dexterity to be expected from a new user. Sure, it is not supposed to be an ancient arcade game, especially not for new users.