From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: MON KEY Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Key bindings proposal Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:10:13 -0400 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280866741 14687 80.91.229.12 (3 Aug 2010 20:19:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:19:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: u.s.reddy@cs.bham.ac.uk Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 03 22:19:00 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgNwt-00014P-8W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 22:18:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57306 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OgNoc-0003fR-CJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:10:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58293 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OgNoW-0003fG-Nr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:10:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgNoU-0007Nt-Ob for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:10:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:36604) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgNoU-0007NZ-FU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:10:14 -0400 Original-Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so5266605wyg.0 for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.227.156.129 with SMTP id x1mr6746171wbw.178.1280866213191; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.216.49.84 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:10:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Sender-Auth: voXY84vbg7Wgs7KI-hXGnuGo_M8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128204 Archived-At: On Tue, 3 Aug 2010 12:56, Uday Reddy wrote: ,---- | When new users come to using a tool like Emacs, their first mode of | interaction is via the menubar, used with the mouse. The second might | be to use keyboard accelerators. `---- As a relevantly recent adoptee of Emacs (circa Winter 2007) I'm compelled to respond. What you say in the above two sentences is true of my experience coming to Emacs. The rest of what you say below is well off the mark w/re my experience. ,---- | Only after they have settled down to using the tool would they begin | to learn some of its key bindings. `---- This does not reflect my experience at all. I read through the tutorial which got me "settled down" in a reasonable time frame and in a reasonable manner. ,---- | And, they will learn them selectively based on the frequency of use | and what they care about. `---- Obv. but this is true of most learning experiences/curves. So what? Maybe someone should author emacs-vulcan-mind-meld.el then learning Emacs will no longer be a selective process. (: ,---- | They almost definitely won't start by reading the manual. Whatever | we might think about it, that is not the way the world works `---- Nearly the first thing I did after reading the tutorial was to _print_ a copy of that big damned Emacs manual wit a 2up landscape orientation. I bound it with some white-glue. Then I read it on the ride to and from work. It quickly became quite dog-eared. Indeed, I once became quite irate once after Stefan politely suggested I RTFM after asking a question on this group re: regexp escaping b/c I _had_ read the manual (though obv. reading about a thing is sometimes mutually exclusive of understanding the thing). ,---- | They will look up the manual when they are stuck on something or | want to learn about some particular feature. If the manual dwells on | the fundamentals too much, it will get in the way. `---- This is a ridiculous assertion. After a few years of Emacs use I still use/refer to the manual constantly. Moreover, I become _annoyed_ when the manual glosses over a fundamental. Frequently my own user experience has been that until I achieve a clear grasp of an Emacs fundamental I am unable to dispense w/ frequent reference to the manual. When the manual discusses a fundamental at length I consider this an _Emacs_ feature that is quite often (i.e. almost always) lacking w/ other software. As a case in point, I read the following portion of the elisp manual on more than one occasion without understanding at all what its author was "getting at" though I did retain an impression that it was somehow important/fundamental: (info "(elisp)Not Intervals") I can recall quite distinctly the moment I finally "got" the implications of this section. My current impression is that the section is a couched lesson in mathematical correctness w/re software. I doubt very seriously most software documentation includes such passages in their manuals though i would bet that its developers would benefit from an opportunity to reflect upon such things.... -- /s_P\