From: MON KEY <monkey@sandpframing.com>
To: levelhalom@gmail.com
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 15:27:07 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <AANLkTimh5nRkkO4XJXmolpF4cYNYITlm4aweAskM8ium@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 10:36:46 +0000 Tom wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> Doesn't the manual help discovering what Emacs can do? Why do you
>> need to search the Internet when you have most of the stuff right
>> under your fingertips?
>
> Using established terminology would help here.
Which established terminology the _new_ stuff or the _old_ stuff that
the new stuff stands upon? See DLW email below.
> Is there a compelling reason to still use yank/kill, instead of copy/cut/paste?
Yes, b/c it is an established standing convention for at least 30 yrs.
One that did much to establesh 'modern' GUI's Lisa/Nextstep/x11 etc.
> Why do we call the cursor the point? And so on.
See DLW email below.
> These relics of old terminology should be updated to the accepted modern
> variants to make the documentation is more accessible for emacs newbies.
I truly believe that w/re the manual, it would be exceedingly
beneficial if it did a better job indicating and celebrating the long
history of both Emacs and the various lisp dialects in general. I also
believe that where it does so already it could do better to avoid certain
outmoded political perspectives. Which is to say GNU won -- part of
being a good winner is knowing how to honor those defeated).
New and old Emacs users alike should be reminded from whence we
came. It should be a source of pride and a mark of prestige that Emacs
has endured the test of time.
Following from the file named: mit/extract/nzwei/info.zwei
as extracted from the archive at:
http://www.unlambda.com/download/mit/mit-20041117.tar.gz
:SEE (URL `http://www.unlambda.com/lisp/mit.page')
It is worth noting that the comparison made below between Emacs and
Zwei is w/re to what were already circa Summer 1980 divergent
implementations of _established_ convention.
,----
| Date: 19 JUL 1980 0411-EDT
| From: DLW at MIT-AI (Daniel L. Weinreb)
| Subject: Differences between ZWEI and EMACS
| To: INFO-ZWEI at MIT-AI
|
| There is a subtle difference between ZWEI and EMACS that many people
| probably don't know about: while EMACS has a "mark PDL", ZWEI has a
| "point PDL". The EMACS mark is the same as the top of the mark PDL,
| but the ZWEI mark has nothing to do with the point PDL. The reason for
| this was so that setting the mark for purposes of defining a region
| would not interfere with the saved buffer pointers on the PDL; that
| always bothered me in EMACS and I considered the ZWEI method an
| improvement.
|
| However, it is not fully compatible with EMACS. One difference that
| may cause some users trouble is that certain commands which, in EMACS,
| set the mark, and thus push on the mark PDL, do not affect the ZWEI
| point PDL. In particular, the "Yank" and "Insert Buffer" commands in
| ZWEI set the mark to the other end of the inserted region, but do not
| affect the point PDL. In EMACS, you can get to the other side of
| the inserted text either by swapping point and mark (with c-X c-X)
| or by popping the mark PDL (c-Space or c-@); in ZWEI only the
| former works.
|
| Another difference between EMACS and ZWEI is that in ZWEI, the region
| either "exists" or "does not exist"; there is no such concept in EMACS.
| When the region exists, it is underlined; when it doesn't exist, the
| underlining goes away. The main point of this is to keep the
| underlining from being visually distracting when the user is not
| concerned about the region. It also keeps region-munging commands
| (such as Uppercase Region or Fill Region) from happening unexpectedly
| if your fingers slip. Usually the region is created when you set the
| mark, and usually it goes away when you give any command that does
| something more complex than moving the point; the mouse can also create
| the region. But even when the region does not exist, the mark is still
| there, albeit invisibly as in EMACS. If you want to turn on the region
| without affecting the current position of mark, you can use c-X c-X,
| which is what some people usually use in EMACS to find out where the
| mark is.
|
| Also, in a few special cases, some commands that refer to the region
| will still work even if the region does not exist. In particular, the
| Kill Region (c-W) command will work immediately following a yanking
| command (such as c-Y), so that you can kill what you just yanked if you
| don't like it.
`----
--
/s_P\
next reply other threads:[~2010-07-10 19:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 304+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2010-07-10 19:27 MON KEY [this message]
2010-07-11 2:16 ` Emacs learning curve Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11 3:39 ` MON KEY
2010-07-11 11:05 ` Lennart Borgman
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-08-02 19:02 grischka
2010-07-15 15:05 grischka
2010-07-14 17:14 grischka
2010-07-14 18:05 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-15 8:33 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-15 13:49 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-16 1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-16 2:52 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16 5:30 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 2:13 grischka
2010-07-13 5:58 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 19:18 grischka
2010-07-12 20:53 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 21:07 ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-12 22:03 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 22:29 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-12 23:22 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 23:53 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 1:17 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13 3:07 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 5:59 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14 8:18 ` Tom
2010-07-14 9:38 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-14 10:31 ` Tom
2010-07-14 18:32 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 8:22 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-15 8:51 ` Tom
2010-07-15 9:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15 9:27 ` Tom
2010-07-15 9:41 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:09 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:24 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:31 ` Tom
2010-07-15 15:05 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-15 15:15 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 15:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16 4:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-16 9:15 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16 9:25 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-16 10:39 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-15 10:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-15 10:14 ` Tom
2010-07-15 10:25 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-15 10:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-16 16:56 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-16 17:12 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 17:27 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 17:38 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:11 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 18:23 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 20:10 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-16 22:16 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 5:45 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 23:07 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-17 6:02 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17 6:29 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-17 7:21 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 7:43 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-17 12:15 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:27 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 13:01 ` John Yates
2010-07-17 16:15 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-17 12:50 ` Andreas Schwab
2010-07-17 16:11 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-19 19:39 ` Andy Wingo
2010-07-19 19:47 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-17 14:28 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-17 15:56 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-18 13:00 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-18 19:21 ` Teemu Likonen
2010-07-20 1:56 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-20 23:25 ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-17 6:09 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:15 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:16 ` Tassilo Horn
[not found] ` <770DFAD9-23D5-4BD3-A209-7E64FFC8999C@gmail.com>
[not found] ` <201007230857.48161.tassilo@member.fsf.org>
2010-07-23 12:53 ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-16 18:15 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-16 18:59 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 19:02 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-16 19:14 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-16 18:16 ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-22 17:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:04 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-22 18:38 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 22:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-16 9:04 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-16 19:05 ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-16 22:26 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 17:08 ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-17 17:51 ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-22 11:36 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 12:14 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 12:18 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 13:03 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-07-22 18:01 ` Ivan Kanis
2010-07-22 19:45 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:56 ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-22 21:58 ` Stephen Eilert
2010-07-23 6:08 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-23 6:23 ` Fren Zeee
2010-07-23 18:23 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-23 7:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 12:24 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 12:37 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 14:20 ` Davis Herring
2010-07-22 15:59 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-22 17:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-17 20:09 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-17 11:15 ` Dirk-Jan C. Binnema
2010-07-21 15:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-21 15:48 ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-21 16:50 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 17:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-22 18:40 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:21 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-22 19:27 ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-25 12:33 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 14:22 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 14:59 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-25 16:04 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-25 20:32 ` Fabian Ezequiel Gallina
2010-07-23 17:20 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-23 17:57 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-23 18:19 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24 3:33 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-24 4:51 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-24 11:52 ` Kim F. Storm
2010-07-24 14:09 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-25 2:07 ` David Robinow
2010-07-23 13:47 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-23 14:41 ` Tom
2010-07-23 16:02 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 17:50 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 20:28 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 22:21 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 23:46 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-23 23:52 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-24 1:16 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-24 14:30 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-23 19:12 ` Tom
2010-07-24 8:55 ` Leo
2010-07-24 13:48 ` joakim
2010-07-24 17:57 ` Wojciech Meyer
2010-07-23 18:25 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-23 18:50 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-23 19:27 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-24 6:38 ` Ivan Andrus
2010-07-23 17:46 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-14 12:13 ` René Kyllingstad
2010-07-13 1:58 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13 3:25 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 6:17 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13 6:34 ` Tom
2010-07-13 8:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13 8:32 ` Tom
2010-07-13 9:03 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-13 9:20 ` Tom
2010-07-13 9:19 ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:59 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:07 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 12:54 ` joakim
2010-07-13 15:33 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 15:49 ` joakim
2010-07-13 18:02 ` Alex Ott
2010-07-13 16:12 ` David Engster
2010-07-13 16:26 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 18:45 ` David Engster
2010-07-14 2:49 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14 11:43 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-14 13:06 ` David Engster
2010-07-13 17:12 ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-13 22:09 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 12:19 ` joakim
2010-07-13 12:41 ` Tom
2010-07-13 20:08 ` Joe Brenner
2010-07-14 17:16 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 21:01 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-13 21:14 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-13 21:58 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-14 10:41 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-14 14:03 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-14 18:36 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 23:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-13 0:18 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 16:54 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 23:27 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 7:56 ` christian.lynbech
2010-07-13 8:10 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 8:44 ` joakim
2010-07-13 9:09 ` immanuel litzroth
2010-07-13 11:43 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-07-13 23:36 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 9:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13 22:37 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-14 0:24 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-07-14 2:32 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-07-14 7:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-13 9:49 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-13 23:06 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-13 13:51 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-13 14:10 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-13 17:03 ` Uday S Reddy
2010-07-13 18:29 ` grischka
2010-07-14 17:16 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-15 15:36 ` grischka
2010-07-29 20:46 ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-07-31 12:02 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-31 13:32 ` martin rudalics
2010-07-31 13:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-31 15:04 ` martin rudalics
2010-08-02 14:56 ` Ted Zlatanov
2010-08-02 15:43 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-09 19:12 Noah Lavine
2010-07-10 6:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 10:36 ` Tom
2010-07-10 11:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-10 11:41 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 15:07 ` Tom
2010-07-10 16:23 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-10 16:39 ` Deniz Dogan
2010-07-10 16:44 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11 1:22 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11 8:33 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-11 11:10 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 16:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:08 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-12 17:45 ` joakim
2010-07-12 17:59 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-13 6:41 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-12 17:53 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2010-07-12 17:48 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-12 18:05 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-10 17:57 ` Tom
2010-07-10 18:32 ` Bernardo Barros
2010-07-10 21:03 ` David Kastrup
2010-07-11 8:34 ` Tom
2010-07-11 10:51 ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 16:05 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11 16:55 ` Miles Bader
2010-07-11 17:14 ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 17:59 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:01 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 19:00 ` Jan Djärv
2010-07-11 19:08 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 22:49 ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-12 7:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12 9:00 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-12 9:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-07-12 20:56 ` David De La Harpe Golden
2010-07-11 18:00 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 22:49 ` Chong Yidong
2010-07-11 23:18 ` Drew Adams
2010-07-11 18:05 ` Sebastian Rose
2010-07-11 15:08 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-04 20:54 ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias
2010-08-05 17:39 ` Barry Fishman
2010-08-06 2:48 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06 2:59 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-06 3:10 ` Miles Bader
2010-08-06 5:18 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-06 11:43 ` Walter Alejandro Iglesias
2010-07-10 23:22 ` Juri Linkov
2010-07-11 1:00 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11 1:44 ` Óscar Fuentes
2010-07-11 2:14 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-11 2:23 ` Sean Sieger
2010-07-11 2:47 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-07-18 19:33 ` Giorgos Keramidas
2010-08-02 9:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 13:26 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 14:57 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 15:00 ` Juanma Barranquero
2010-08-02 15:50 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 18:19 ` Tassilo Horn
2010-08-02 20:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:42 ` Johan Bockgård
2010-08-04 17:49 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 14:16 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 15:07 ` Sean Sieger
2010-08-02 15:55 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 20:35 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-08-02 21:11 ` Drew Adams
2010-08-02 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 18:37 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 19:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2010-08-02 20:02 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-03 5:57 ` David Kastrup
2010-08-02 18:39 ` Tom
2010-08-02 18:43 ` Lennart Borgman
2010-08-02 19:53 ` joakim
2010-08-03 22:07 ` Eric M. Ludlam
2010-08-04 9:13 ` David Kastrup
2010-08-04 9:42 ` Alex Ott
2010-08-03 3:33 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2010-08-03 18:45 ` Andy Wingo
2010-08-04 12:36 ` Stefan Monnier
2010-07-10 15:01 ` Noah Lavine
2010-07-08 7:44 Efforts to attract more users? joakim
2010-07-09 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2010-07-09 7:33 ` Emacs learning curve (was Re: Efforts to attract more users?) christian.lynbech
2010-07-09 7:43 ` Emacs learning curve Masatake YAMATO
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