From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Wojciech Meyer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:56:49 +0100 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87lj9ayp2f.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201007221414.39227.tassilo@member.fsf.org> <876307s8dm.fsf@kanis.fr> <878w539u7m.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279828620 16264 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 19:57:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 19:57:00 +0000 (UTC) To: David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 22 21:56:58 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc1t4-000747-5X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 21:56:58 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33840 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc1t3-0004Bp-M2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:56:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=53325 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oc1sy-0004Ac-7E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:56:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc1sw-0006it-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:56:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:48293) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oc1sw-0006im-Ki; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:56:50 -0400 Original-Received: by wyg36 with SMTP id 36so1087358wyg.0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:56:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=VkdGISQhTyVwjVkddiB351N6O3l/hYxiXfqVHDR4Isw=; b=KqhxOA6MZW+CJKntBQKuynDsKJxqRwumzvgw01SLaU6UFtIKiv9TKRIxebXoWWp6Fk /fUVlsdPz7Lp1h1YNKNk0m3/7ZWvpfKIpRDZxxeVTmhM58tH/VRrrvcIT4TUfFmulnLU UDiY+Dm10zj5ZEcx9Y1LhK9lT3RRIrOjZa9Gc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=EsBrX7NIQIRrS+ZGLOPZc5g4M2jZSYmvdwife1snZGncxF6CcwJdJBdnqYacgDF98v QwA1cRtJwp7o+QBoHh3ncywD6S7gXSa8/TXXU5K56mUa9nychKKcwUcWC7KFBZUxpGXZ 9Qaa43r2SaRq0TPLM2LM2gJMUujEOhSxrdeqk= Original-Received: by 10.227.69.134 with SMTP id z6mr2371860wbi.201.1279828609562; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.216.70.193 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:56:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <878w539u7m.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127660 Archived-At: Yes. Cua mode is not a solution. The solution would be a minor mode that preserves CUA keys but disables *completely* emacs ones. The mode should be easy to toggle and there need to be evident feedback when it is on, a screen nagging about advanced features avaiable when you switch the mode on. One will have chance to learn new bindigs gradually. Wojciech On 7/22/10, David Kastrup wrote: > Ivan Kanis writes: > >> Tassilo Horn wrote: >> >>> And we would need to define new guidelines for modes. These >>> recommendations are also in conflict with CUA: >> >> ... snip stuff about C-c .. >> >>> But since old emacs users and users happy with the emacs way would like >>> to stick to the default bindings, we would have to somehow invend >>> conventions that fit for both Emacs and CUAmacs. I'm pretty sure that's >>> near to impossible if you want to preserve a rest of mnemonics and >>> consistency. >> >> C-c is addressed in CUA mode, it only does copy if transient mode is >> on. You can still get C-c in transient by pressing C-c twice. > > Within a fifth of a second. > >> It's technically possible for emacs to have sane key binding, it's >> just political not do so. > > I refuse to call that sort of timing-based key sequence difference > "sane". For example, it makes bug reports containing key lossage > useless since the key lossage fails to mention the delays between key > presses. > >> On a somewhat related note emacs added long line visual motion. It was >> turned on by default possibly creating confusion for veteran >> users. The same old user can quickly find that setting >> line-move-visual to nil gets her the old behavior. >> >> Why can't we do that for CUA mode? I think that politics get in the >> way. > > The result is not sane and not consistent. If you call it "politics" > not to present insane and inconsistent behavior to new users, you may be > right. And any politician being serious about this sort of politics can > count on my vote. > > We discussed this. We voted on it. Again and again. And again and > again. And you'll still find the vocal minority ignore reality and > claim that they are suffering from unreasonable hardships by not getting > their whim against the majority, against common sense, against > consistency, against the arguments they keep discarding, and without > cleaning up their act first. > > -- > David Kastrup > > > -- Sent from my mobile device