From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 17:59:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa7uu1e.fsf@kanis.fr> <877hkv2hco.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87iq4e593w.fsf@kanis.fr> <87lj9ayp2f.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <50523.130.55.118.19.1279808410.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279815838 1100 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 16:23:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 16:23:58 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Ivan Kanis , Chong Yidong , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Tom , Miles Bader To: herring@lanl.gov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 22 18:23:56 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ObyYt-0007EX-Ny for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 18:23:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47237 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ObyYs-0005zT-H3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:23:54 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=53888 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ObyBI-0007MO-RD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:59:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ObyBH-0002Ru-Il for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:59:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com ([74.125.83.169]:61869) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ObyBE-0002Qn-DC; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 11:59:28 -0400 Original-Received: by pvc30 with SMTP id 30so7338195pvc.0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:59:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=n8NugPFDVSHb5d+Ih9wJ4IauaOH0h6NflFH/GpfJw28=; b=sRRZuEI+EIVKavjaiWf84pfKICQl040E1Z+qv+ckOfHuzvhe99dLrxN5DBV7OE5AZV TjUgT8n1eDUPW4VzFqEzRa6Ijc4IhXfDI8cSCfyUbKcEFjbaDkBcgoUs/zd8EW7KO9xJ XhDlYgtf6fEuLjxat5RGOKs5eacfplWzHqEbw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=FadqjB3q4Kr5GL/Esf9URLBjBwYjAhvaeF4trD9MrfWNCiaG54KuIwRiKmoSB0/gw5 I9oX9RtmIV2DWo3b2+k9NVYx2Ih9hvfKAEi/mqIbzeWyMovBmbtVvvANDl7MnwzUTFFX eBvbOTG+xzQk43DzhxMWu0pWE9UA0rG/QXslc= Original-Received: by 10.142.209.12 with SMTP id h12mr2524913wfg.197.1279814367043; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.5.72 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:59:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <50523.130.55.118.19.1279808410.squirrel@webmail.lanl.gov> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127644 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Davis Herring wrote: >> Is not this a reason for making CUA mode default? As long as it is not >> the default it will be a second class citizen and obstacles like this >> will remains. And those makes it quite a bit harder for new users. > > If it is in fact the case that "As long as [a keymap] is not the default > ... obstacles like this will remain[]", then it would still be true (but > about the current global map) if CUA were the default, and so obstacles > would still remain. =C2=A0(You were making a point very much like this in= a > more recent message.) =C2=A0So how can your argument favor either as the > default? Thanks. This post was a bit fun ;-) This was nearly the essence of my argument, but not quite. The current default bindings have so to say been worked through. CUA mode bindings have not been worked through. I will not say much more now. I think you can explore this argument more yourself. > Of course, I think I know the answer. =C2=A0You think that it is not the = keymap > conflicts, but the lack of CUA itself, that makes it "quite a bit harder > for new users". No, that is not what I mean. You are oversimplificating here. There are currently keymap conflicts when you are using CUA mode and that is an obstacle too for new users that are used to CUA bindings (and would prefer to use them). > So then the obstacles (keymap conflicts) are bad, but > only because they interfere with the obvious, necessary adoption of > CUA-as-default. This is your own conclusion, not following from the essence of my arguments= . > But look at the resulting logic: > > 1. Keymap conflicts make it hard/problematic to change the default. Isn't it more the clash between Emacs traditional bindings and CUA bindings? CUA does not in itself give rise to keymap conflicts. The corresponding bindings in trad Emacs are also single key bindings. > 2. If CUA became the default, the keymap conflicts would have been > addressed. =C2=A0(Because they had to be!) Yes. And I have no doubt that the problem for old Emacs users would be solved too. > 3. It would then no longer be problematic to change the default. There would be a framework for it. > 4. Therefore, we should adopt CUA, because it's not problematic to do so. I never said so... ;-) > Step 3 never happens, because the benefit it provides occurs too late. For old users, yes. But the benefits could be more users and developers and that would probably benefit old users too. There are many things we are not able to do because of lack of developers. > "If the problem were already solved, it would be easy, so let's do it!" :-) This is one of the cornerstones in positive psychology. It works. > My sincerest apologies if I misunderstand your thinking. =C2=A0But if I > understand it correctly, please don't construct a circular argument and > then hide it by connecting keymap conflicts (which we're all unhappy > about) directly to "quite a bit harder for new users", which is not a > point everyone agrees on. No problem. I hope I did not misunderstand you too much.