From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: arrow keys vs. C-f/b/n/p Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:04:28 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87d3w2ncqs.fsf_-_@lola.goethe.zz> <87iq5py7xk.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874oh9jwqw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1276279501 10376 80.91.229.12 (11 Jun 2010 18:05:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:05:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , David Kastrup , James Cloos , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Chong Yidong Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jun 11 20:04:58 2010 connect(): No such file or directory Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ON8bB-00075i-KS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:04:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43681 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ON8bB-00026J-3G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:04:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=54522 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ON8b4-00024Z-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:04:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ON8b3-0003xJ-HW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:04:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:46258) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ON8b3-0003xD-FC; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:04:49 -0400 Original-Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7so502098yxs.0 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=1ld2a8N9GILTR0y9DtW2BLlyVRceXXyQOSKZSXCvThY=; b=Wt+9sFh7QqZfk4gZr2AzpeMFVdto0bnjoP37plmgwWTn2PRzZFR91YF5M0llq841H7 QupEzGMKN5nthjXsGBLKiJUBAn6jycasSZz2RwHIh5EUaT2jcTzgYNgDqHfDG4jR6qn4 zVq2x0KKCyUHxc1OQPc5NmLZCGPmzQrbM8hCI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Cm/8PGDsVUKach4JB6uuHVeXDbtsUTlxsO7Iw2KEt3zuWPLeKzE8YilvKjQ8eC2B/H YZikIqfAHlQI7nj8B4TBRAobVGc4JfyKyxn3Sxrjl+LJrbVbeL2Acubd8ZkVtQv+jwyI PUkKUE8UhOhrOlkcNFvgC+bb+Zj4tFcoOnEos= Original-Received: by 10.101.193.40 with SMTP id v40mr2069423anp.204.1276279488357; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.100.154.15 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:04:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <874oh9jwqw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:125757 Archived-At: On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 7:37 PM, Chong Yidong wrote= : > James Cloos writes: > >> In gedit C-f and C-b move forward and backward logically, whereas LEFT >> and RIGHT move left and right visually. =C2=A0I suspect that all =CF=80= =CE=B1=CE=BD=E8=AA=9E (aka >> pango) apps -- notably including most gtk/gnome apps -- will also do so. >> >> In seamonkey, in a web-page's text input box, both the arrow keys and >> the C-b and C-f keys move visually. >> >> In gvim, both the h and l keys and the arrow keys move visually. >> >> In Openoffice.org, the arrow keys move logically. > > Well, this sample indicates a complete lack of consensus, contra Eli's > earlier statement that > >>>> this is what users of bidirectional scripts expect -- they are used >>>> to it in every other bidi-aware application out there. > > One possibility is that editors intended specifically for bidi, such as > native-language Hebrew or Arabic apps, have a convention that vim, > gedit, etc have not taken up. =C2=A0So, could anyone who has experience w= ith > such apps speak up? Looking around on the internet (not being a bidi reader) it seems to me that it is mostly a programming mistake to let the arrow keys change direction. (Somehow maybe also from a beginners perspective the right arrow might mean "go forward".) However for someone editing texts in some way this is awkward IMO. Here are some links: - http://www.sfc.wide.ad.jp/~akihiko/java/jdk1.2beta3/docs/guide/2d/spec/j2= d-fonts.fm1.html (look for "moving the caret"). - http://wiki.sibawayhi.org/keyboard - READING IS NOT CURSORING! - http://bugs.dojotoolkit.org/ticket/8037 (just a short complaints about cursor changing their ways) - http://www.qsm.co.il/Hebrew/logicUI22.htm - "The logical approach is sometimes preferred by implementors, mostly because its implementation is easier. This is not a recommended solution."