From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Key bindings proposal Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:53:43 +0200 Message-ID: References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.47167.15000.439215@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87fwys7qao.fsf@telefonica.net> <87hbj8qvd9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87iq3k68ye.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874of466rj.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87pqxsbrie.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87k4nv7t72.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <19556.28233.750000.798692@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281740060 14869 80.91.229.12 (13 Aug 2010 22:54:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:54:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Chong Yidong , Lennart Borgman , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Uday S Reddy Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 14 00:54:18 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok38h-0006hG-5i for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:54:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53494 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ok38g-0003MA-DZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:54:14 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=39257 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ok38Y-0003LQ-9f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:54:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok38W-0007BG-D6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:54:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.213.169]:59076) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok38W-0007B9-7o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:54:04 -0400 Original-Received: by yxs7 with SMTP id 7so1517822yxs.0 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:54:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RGs5ocqLPM6BYQNZQaxvIjUEavN4bySKUwammpwU1GU=; b=IVh/2iufy6zMWcd0FPuKyezWJo0qyzoUdwtdLl5UAUVsHu6b1SEANC5iE2JUwJHGlY GdqOge2lqU2k9ByYfsL0HJlTcg+/laFXuJwMddcywNapFfpgxvyvuM6e1RNVlslMIdmS pUh1XSDZpIrx7g4/0dA0B9tz+GQgmtAXBeLnw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i1TAF6MkHSM83iVQhBZHLCvc/eZmSypOS3vNDpxXiz29gKhpMnSLAZcd4Bq1z9KXX8 RDnvpVXjwyYBugFO+0Z+f85cCyva/Nr0RfRL2a/0sR4/FHhdkfwzwMkUgrlS84kc+uf1 RQlyVriqNEVTRe9hJeY/ZddEqC0czvZCI5PTQ= Original-Received: by 10.231.35.77 with SMTP id o13mr2500439ibd.92.1281740043408; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.151.132 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:53:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128637 Archived-At: On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:57, Uday S Reddy wrote= : > Yes, sure. =C2=A0But, I think you are joining in in a subthread where > Yidong has been pushing the view that treating the windows key as meta > is unreasonable. No, he doesn't. He says that making that at the Emacs level is unreasonable. And I think that making this the default, or implying that it's the only sane behavior for Windows users, or necessary somehow, is unreasonable. > On the other hand, the wikipedia page on the windows key says that it is = *freqently* done. On non-Windows environments. So what? > We have been through this before. =C2=A0The current Emacs provision is > sub-optimal for normal users like me, and it is unworkable for > sticky-keys uses like Lennart. Please, reread my e-mail. I already know that. Making Windows to be meta is much more subotimal to me. > Well, those of us that depend on commercial products develop antennae > that can sense the difference between a marketing gimmick and a truly > engineered feature. Please! What kind of argument is that? Some appeal to authority? > The Microsoft-branded windows keys (for which the > keyboard manufacturers have to pay a royalty to Microsoft!) seem to > fall in the former camp. =C2=A0So, the more we can violate Microsoft's > designs, the better we feel. Talk for yourself. I don't mind what company's logo is on the key, just that it is useful to me. > By arguing for using the windows key the Microsoft way, you are > unwittingly championing the Microsoft gimmicry. Even worse: by using Microsoft products I'm doing it too. As you do, if you're using Windows. > Is it really? =C2=A0The majority of the functions that have been put on t= he > windows key can already be obtained by other means. "The majority" !=3D "all". And, C+Esc is much less convenient for me. I've never used any C+Esc shortcut because I find them hard to type, while W+key are quite natural. > None of > them seems important enough to give up good keyboard access to Emacs's > own menus. I'm glad to know you know what's important for all Windows users. > For the seasoned Emacs users, something like 90% of our work is done > inside Emacs and only around 10% in Windows. I confess I've been using Emacs daily only for thirteen years, so I'm not seasoned enough. But I certainly don't spend 90% of my time inside Emacs. > So, it makes sense for > us to put as many resources as possible at Emacs's disposal rather > than Windows. =C2=A0I am afraid the logic is on Lennart's side. Only if you define logic as "everyone needs the exact same things that Lennart and me need, or they are not *really* Windows users". > For better or worse, Microsoft has ended up providing us with a good > pair of modifier keys. =C2=A0Now, let us put them to good use! I already do. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma