From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Key bindings proposal Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:16:11 +0200 Message-ID: References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19537.40472.267000.563053@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281022986 18626 80.91.229.12 (5 Aug 2010 15:43:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 15:43:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Uday S Reddy , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juanma Barranquero Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 05 17:43:04 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh2b2-0001G7-0N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 17:43:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48733 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oh2b1-0003B2-65 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:43:03 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=44178 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oh28y-0008Pn-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:14:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh28x-0006Tv-Cs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:14:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:52708) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh28x-0006Tq-Ad for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:14:03 -0400 Original-Received: by qwk4 with SMTP id 4so4678877qwk.0 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 08:14:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Tdc1S7ASelsYcEHBkgxOx+aBUKuTg5hqy0H5RyVG2/w=; b=xzC4pRg2ipoVgHvBozjtC0pLduE0YBiEXvXo7jo+lGTEyicvEidE5HgBuqWjl3hKBc VaU9iNV6BpakuI4gIPaRW5oL27i6bmlq+qnMpQkBnpgKqsKuR7WndVh2PD0rUk1uK96W XGU03q+PNyHR51+kUi+QtvrVWpXWJxHdPoHRg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=ggnYKHwdv3ICYNW2XVRJ5+BHR1bZ5OAjwqTN88bvy+5UmTrmkksLcC7RuzP/M6W7Mq Bhi6U89nHCXP3NxVibDE9T9ScGsB4hZ5ERtKE2F9BUXHSeMSRGNmJWuBW+qM5XP0iBi7 k6o10sW3zsjG3fbJSWb/ZSIypw4P68A7kzTMo= Original-Received: by 10.224.2.134 with SMTP id 6mr1841795qaj.226.1281010591279; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 05:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.9.84 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 05:16:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128286 Archived-At: On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote: > >> There were three main things I wanted to work: >> - Using the windows keys (or other key, for example shift-lock) as >> Emacs META so that Alt key could be freed. > > Why is that *necessary* for Windows users? Oh, I forget META-TAB too, which is used heavily in Emacs. >> - Getting sticky keys (accessibility) to work. > > Have you filed a bug report about the specific problems in standard > Emacs vs. sticky keys? We have discussed it on this list. >> And once again: I do not consider it a fork. Some people have indeed >> asked me to make it a fork but I have stayed here, hoping things >> should change. > > It's a matter of definition. Rather bashing. >> Please excuse me, Juanma, but I find this a bit annoying. I have >> explained this several times before here. > > There's a difference between "I would like for Emacs to work in > such-and-such way", and "Windows users do need such-and-such feature > to feel comfortable with Emacs". Obviously all of your changes fall > into the first category, but I'm not so sure about the second one. I > know of a few seasoned Windows users which apparently do not need > them. So stop trying to conflate both categories. Have I done that? When? Perhaps you misunderstood something? >> And I also find it a bit hopeful. Using the right and left windows >> keys as Emacs META requires that a low level keyboard hook is used. >> Just read the documentation at MS to see that. (I have given link to >> it previously.) > > Yes, but you need to use the Windows key as meta *because* you want to > use Alt for alt, and you want to use Alt for alt because some menu > troubles, isn't so? And the question is, are really these troubles so > big? Yes, I thnink so. There is also the trouble with META-TAB. (And if they are, shouldn't you work to get the keyboard > handling patch into Emacs... and then we're back to the same old > discussion). They are there in my patched version. Just grab them. >> I would be glad if you (and others) did not try to make other people look silly. > > I would be glad if you (and others) did not try to make Emacs > developers look like old farts that do not accept your changes out of > sheer complacency or negligence. I hope I have not done that. (But I am not responsible for your answers.) I know time is a big issue, but I have spent a lot of time on this.