From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Andrew W. Nosenko" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: C-x C-x (was: C-d deleting region considered harmful) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 03:28:50 +0300 Message-ID: References: <87eicrx1ls.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <4C94E03D.8090002@gmail.com> <87fwx699pc.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83tylmyclx.fsf@gnu.org> <4C961787.3090907@gmail.com> <878w2xsigj.fsf@gmail.com> <87zkvd5hwa.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1285028951 21774 80.91.229.12 (21 Sep 2010 00:29:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 00:29:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Emacs-Devel devel To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 21 02:29:07 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OxqjE-0003qq-Ox for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 21 Sep 2010 02:29:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46311 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OxqjD-0003z6-Vm for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:29:00 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=45872 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oxqj7-0003tB-18 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:28:54 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oxqj6-0000Uz-0P for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:28:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.216.41]:52940) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oxqj5-0000Uf-Tt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:28:51 -0400 Original-Received: by qwf7 with SMTP id 7so5510526qwf.0 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=JAu5oFyCUo119u8N5sW05RpJ1WsyUnwlJYqT6/tLHDU=; b=c4sfLV4JXaOc4rxt7o+3wY21APWXlmnMIsJlIOuyTWBIDlVWd+H/cjs73GXBOTLuiV XTZRknK7KGaVUik0158P+Jo3hcW1eerE4vcpt4ctIRNbiUnRFOY8JSheiA4tW4IISq4O 0sWTEf/ekJ4v9LPAE3vW3MpKHFfyeLE7HBbvI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nbufwkn0mGZ+It6W6P8O+GCfDRTWCUvvfT4lnh1yBrz5cY3owi43vm7eaLG14gp1px TKZNnRTh1oz3FYKZVioq3tJsfK7eM4jvwdvOyb5nTAe6XVFwspDWiwrNx0MlaEBHowS8 fZzX9k65t0EOrSkBxgleljS7eek0c7rypRcbo= Original-Received: by 10.229.37.130 with SMTP id x2mr6407453qcd.194.1285028930608; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.25.201 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Sep 2010 17:28:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:130550 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 01:09, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: > So, I think we agree that we should change the active-region deletion so > it only happens for `delete' and not for C-d. > Good. =A0We're just waiting for someone to cobble up > a corresponding patch. Very please to excuse me, but may be it need to stop decoupling aliases into surprisingly different functionality? I always used to C-d and "del" key as aliases under Emacs. And want to continue the same. Just because keyboards are different. Full sized pc keyboard is one thing with the one distances between keys and good separated navigation block. Netbook keyboard is absolutely another thing with absolutely different key sizes and different physical keys placement. I was (and is) very exited by these [as I think] intentionally provided aliases that greatly improve usability. And please, don't ruin it! And for clearness: it's not about whether delete-char should to delete active region (if any). Anyway I can to turn such feature on or off through customize or init.el. It's about decoupling/breaking of very useful aliases, which allows to feel comfortable under variety of highly different keyboards. > > Now for the spinoff thread that keeps spinning off other ones: I'd be > willing to decouple C-x C-x from "(re)activate the region", but then we > need to find some other way to reactivate the region. > Suggestions welcome. =A0Of course there's C-u C-x C-x, but I don't find i= t > very appealing (just like C-u C-x C-x doesn't sound too appealing to > people who currently want to exchange-mark-and-point without activating > the region). About stop activating region by C-x C-x. I'm (of course) unable to speak for anyone who uses t-m-m, but for me C-x C-x, same as C-x C-x C-x C-x is intentionally thing for activating region. And usual goal is to send this region to the external filter (as in C-x C-x C-u M-|). Just depending on goals I want to start review or editing of results from top or from bottom and therefore use 2 or 4 C-x. And it is simple and logical: exchange point and mark and activate region, just repeated twice if need (thanks to "activate" instead of "toggle" semantics). Now it may be transformed to exchange and some when latter activate. What if I hit C-x yet another 2 times? Continue to activate region? Start to toggle? Start to toggle every 2nd (even) pair of C-x and do nothing on every 1st (odd) pair of C-x? Something another? Again, please excuse me, I have no intention to insult anyone personally or as group. I just argue that here are many things. And logical consistence is not the least of them. Just because decreases learning curve (in short term) and keeps productivity in the long term. And it is just from user's point of view, without counting the Emacs developers convenience and time (any inconsistency produces exceptional cases, any exceptional case produces special control flow branch, any (especially irrational) branch is the source for errors or at least brain resources eater). --=20 Andrew W. Nosenko