From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:37:06 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa7uu1e.fsf@kanis.fr> <877hkv2hco.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <87iq4e593w.fsf@kanis.fr> <87lj9ayp2f.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87r5ivaemv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279802262 12463 80.91.229.12 (22 Jul 2010 12:37:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:37:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 22 14:37:41 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Obv1w-00032K-LG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:37:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52985 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Obv1v-0002GD-VL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:37:40 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=35368 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Obv1m-0002EL-9s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:37:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Obv1k-0003Iz-Ud for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:37:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-gx0-f169.google.com ([209.85.161.169]:55526) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Obv1k-0003Ir-SR; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:37:28 -0400 Original-Received: by gxk4 with SMTP id 4so5785223gxk.0 for ; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:37:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WbqZYPxCQ/8/qKjwwyPeXLdhANNlBJDebk4hO02yero=; b=MsUhgbvQGlNFzsQS2YKT2aYw7xy0CyTorFX/sOUJvGICc6HQE4lVCvIKUk6QPBW+ua lByN+O1NWPOlOfHF5aVqUcITn6eNl9WmgyfZMrCJ8BkenVXIs3KjArobMsZTVKRiA/dV E4iSwgDIOXnunE+wEcM2NYZuvBbPQMpfqLbQg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=yDalwWzePkHLeI1pkCwuarztXwmhoVOtKUJRW8NvHHP0BtotGPBNbFbRQTuAuKGG1x eEUukV6aMLMwa6BSwq4vTKilXxT0z1/WALO0dNWJ7x5Hze0zD6JS3d84ksAK0q3dihoG y3S81KT2yeUgbIyx8OjLcZxv9xyBah+/leVc0= Original-Received: by 10.224.119.20 with SMTP id x20mr1139825qaq.249.1279802247253; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.5.72 with HTTP; Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:37:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87r5ivaemv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127632 Archived-At: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:24 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > Lennart Borgman writes: > >> On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Chong Yidong wr= ote: >>> Ivan Kanis writes: >>> >>>> I think turning on CUA mode by default would help first time users. If >>>> there's a one line of lisp to turn it off and have the old behavior I >>>> don't mind. I don't think veteran emacs user would mind either. >>> >>> No, having CUA mode on by default is off the table. >>> >>> This proposal has been discussed before, and there are many problems >>> with it. =C2=A0For instance, by default, C-c LETTER is reserved for use= r >>> customizations; CUA prevents such key bindings when the region is >>> active. >> >> Is not this a reason for making CUA mode default? > > No. > >> As long as it is not the default it will be a second class citizen > > It will remain a second class citizen, period, because its operation > interferes with the normal Emacs operation and its most important > keybindings. > >> and obstacles like this will remains. And those makes it quite a bit >> harder for new users. > > Yes, getting coherent behavior from Emacs is much harder with CUA mode > enabled. =C2=A0It is not a good default setting for new users. > >>> Let's not revisit this discussion. =C2=A0It is not difficult to turn on >>> CUA mode, for those who want it; it's even in the Options menu. >> >> That is not the problem. > > The problem is that some people can't take "no" for an answer and will > pretend they have not been given ample hearing when the results of a > rational discussion were not to their liking. Bullshit. I have heard this many times. It does not make the arguments bett= er. Just realize this is a difficult situation instead with no easy solution. > The Emacs developing list is being bogged down increasingly by repeated > whinings that pretend an issue has not already been exhaustively > covered. =C2=A0That is annoying enough when new people jump into the list > without educating themselves about the status quo. =C2=A0When, however, t= he > same people keep doing it, with the implied threat that they'll keep > this up indefinitely, keeping the rest of the list from doing useful > work until their bidding is done, it is not funny. I am getting tired of this and will probably like many others have done before give up. I got some private mails about this when starting to be more active in Emacs development.