From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Fren Zeee Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Comment on Emacs Lisp Introduction Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:19:39 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87fwyy261p.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20100801.140650.297219757.hanche@math.ntnu.no> <87bp9lto70.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8739uwtlzh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280891994 19142 80.91.229.12 (4 Aug 2010 03:19:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 03:19:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Harald Hanche-Olsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 04 05:19:52 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgUWC-0007nh-L6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 05:19:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36196 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OgUWB-0000zF-DS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:19:47 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50679 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OgUW6-0000zA-C0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:19:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgUW5-0007DU-08 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:19:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com ([209.85.214.169]:46465) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OgUW4-0007DH-So for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:19:40 -0400 Original-Received: by iwn2 with SMTP id 2so7137853iwn.0 for ; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VpORWPtWCsNT0a8IGDllYZ/EDzRJA5k8q8cep/Jb2To=; b=ZifsjidBPN1ViB77YM2xKlmno8ICbH0j6VzY3bkwP6FzRNp/wMSL0tCSHYfb5UolV5 Uqq2J3L4iyWd+erqegGvBgT3PAAF7pbK4mp21/x5sNsXhxEwnauBGvWl0czbkuhLB5w1 A98vMDwnXDzj7/oTiM+ALb4BHFstdwBZjUFDk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=u1NdtHawpgznX32xWMz326XvWlxCaD2sQCoShrzcp/Py7Cv9F9W1K+c+yrz/9tOT6T 9w7sjvD1g3ik4isJO0Tb/9qDoLBwX4j0gXtG6oh1o1vu4PZWLvqvcq9sLXoqvVlFDN2e wh5G1yVq4J8YkQTPjJI+Di4XfAVLWf614JTiU= Original-Received: by 10.231.36.69 with SMTP id s5mr9201532ibd.58.1280891979676; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.199.80 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8739uwtlzh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128210 Archived-At: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:26 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wr= ote: > Fren Zeee writes: > > =A0> I am not complaining. Its just that I dont have it, and need to find > =A0> source matching this old executable, which means that it will take > =A0> some time to search for the particular freeze or tar file if it is > =A0> still on the web. > > Huh. =A0Why are you so focused on "old"? =A0If you are an historian, you'= d > better enjoy such searches because that's what historians do. =A0If > you're a programmer, though, old versions are of no particular > interest unless you already know them well enough for forward > differences to have meaning to you. It appears that software is developed both outside-in and inside-out at various times and the oldest most primitive version has the simplest structure, and least features. IMHO it would be for educational purposes, not just historical. For a professor like you, who knows a lot more, perhaps, can start anywhere in the field, but not for a newbie like myself. > If you're interested in a particular function, M-x disassemble. Show me an example where disassemble would help in understanding the code. I think it gives VM code, not lisp code. Give a walk-thru concrete example of several functions that illustrate how disassemble would help understanding the code. > Otherwise, why do you refuse to take the advice to use a modern > version? =A0The basic architecture hasn't changed since the GNU rewrite. OK, so give me a diagram which shows the scanner of LISP interpreter, and in addition some comments for writing the primitives. > Functions that are more complex now have become that way for a reason; > those reasons are worth studying. =A0Many functions are *not* more > complex in themselves than they were then, but have become simpler > because they delegate subtasks that have increased in complexity to > other functions. =A0It's easier to work backward from modern versions whi= ch > are well-developed based on better abstractions (cf. Michael Stokes' > comment about Green's Theorem: "It is trivial. =A0It is trivial because > the concepts have been well-defined. =A0That definition took decades." > -- or something like that, I don't have _Calculus on Manifolds_ handy). I know what you mean but you cant stuff that into the mouth of a newbie before knowing something of vector calculus. Franz Xe It would certainly help if I can get some debug sessions from you and the other gentleman who gave me the initial advice on playing with emacs using its own debug and gdb, a typescript file.