* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ?
@ 2011-03-27 17:01 Rustom Mody
0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread
From: Rustom Mody @ 2011-03-27 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-orgmode
Marcel wrote:
> When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into
> the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue
> text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started.
Here's a not-so-pretty hack to get what (I guess) you want
------------
* Main headline
** Main headline contents
Some thoughts expressed here
*** Subheading 1
More thoughts expressed here
*** Subheading 2
More thoughts expressed here
** main headline contents1
Not exactly part of Main headline but of Main headline contentsi
for some i
--------------
The idea basically is to split your heading into a heading proper and
a (series of) contents headlines.
The actual subheadings go 1 level deeper than your original (logical?)
intention.
You could of course in principle apply the same principle recursively
to the (original) sub headlines though in practice I guess you would
only need do that to the large sections.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Continuation of main section text after subsections ? @ 2011-03-27 15:02 Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Marcel van der Boom @ 2011-03-27 15:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode Hi, When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. A simplified example of such an outline would be: --- * Main headline Some thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 2 More thoughts expressed here I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of 'Subheading 2' ---- I've looked for documentation or customization options on this, but haven't found any yet. What I have done so far is turn the subheadings into lists or surround them by *bold markers*, which helps a little. The current outlining interrupts my flow of writing too often; it's getting a nuisance. What are my options, if any, to get the outline behaviour as above? marcel -- Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf HS-Development BV -- http://www.hsdev.com So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 15:02 Marcel van der Boom @ 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-03-27 15:52 ` Cian 2011-03-29 18:54 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-30 18:26 ` Mark Elston 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Jambunathan K @ 2011-03-27 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw To: Marcel van der Boom; +Cc: emacs-orgmode > --- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 > More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 > More thoughts expressed here > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > ---- Why is copy pasting not an option ... My intention is not to tick you off but I am confused about what you are trying to say here. Jambunathan K. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-03-27 15:52 ` Cian 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Cian @ 2011-03-27 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book Section 1 Stuff Section 1.1.1 More stuff Now this goes under Section 1 Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of org-mode's headings as chapter headers What you can do is something like the following: * Main headline Something goes here #+BEGIN_NOTE sub thoughts #+END_NOTE Some more stuff under main headline The #stuff can be closed when you want it to get it out of the way, so I sometimes use this a means of attaching notes to a document. It works, but I'm sure it could be improved. That way you can also have different exporting options for the note if you really want them. On Sun, Mar 27, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote: > >> --- >> * Main headline >> Some thoughts expressed here >> >> ** Subheading 1 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Subheading 2 >> More thoughts expressed here >> >> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >> 'Subheading 2' >> ---- > > Why is copy pasting not an option ... > > My intention is not to tick you off but I am confused about what you are > trying to say here. > > Jambunathan K. > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 15:52 ` Cian @ 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 16:34 ` William Gardella ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Marcel van der Boom @ 2011-03-27 16:11 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote: > You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book > > Section 1 > Stuff > Section 1.1.1 > More stuff > > Now this goes under Section 1 > > Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of > org-mode's headings as chapter headers Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a while. For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it does make sense, to me at least. When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a customization option. Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? marcel -- Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf HS-Development BV -- http://www.hsdev.com So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom @ 2011-03-27 16:34 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 16:49 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:02 ` William Gardella 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw To: Marcel van der Boom; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes: > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel Marcel, I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading environment explicitly. As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. You've just stumbled into one of them... -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 16:34 ` William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 16:49 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Nicolas 2011-03-27 17:02 ` William Gardella 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode I agree with Marcel on this. If org is supposed to help get /to/ the final version of a document, then it should support the (possibly inconsistent) structures that can appear in all the in-between steps after conceiving of the document and before the final version. The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into headines+text later. Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 12:11, Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> wrote: > > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel > > -- > Marcel van der Boom -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf > HS-Development BV -- http://www.hsdev.com > So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info > Cobra build -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl > > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salustri@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 16:49 ` Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Nicolas 2011-03-27 17:10 ` Filippo A. Salustri 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Nicolas @ 2011-03-27 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw To: Filippo A. Salustri; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Hello, "Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes: > The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The > problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into > headines+text later. What about using C-c C-* on the list? Regards, -- Nicolas ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Nicolas @ 2011-03-27 17:10 ` Filippo A. Salustri 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw To: Filippo A. Salustri, emacs-orgmode; +Cc: Nicolas Yes, of course. But it's still something *I* have to do as a separate task. This breaks my cognitive workflow; it's a distraction. One of the reasons I use org is that it's so distraction-free compared to every other tool I've tried. It seems like distraction-freeness is a big deal in org, so I would have thought that every bit of distraction is a distraction too many. Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 13:08, Nicolas <n.goaziou@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > "Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes: > >> The workaround I use is to use lists instead of headlines. The >> problem then becomes the extra work of turning lists into >> headines+text later. > > What about using C-c C-* on the list? > > Regards, > > -- > Nicolas > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salustri@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 16:34 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 16:49 ` Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 17:02 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes: > On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 > Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote: > >> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >> >> Section 1 >> Stuff >> Section 1.1.1 >> More stuff >> >> Now this goes under Section 1 >> >> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >> org-mode's headings as chapter headers > > Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on > how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a > while. > For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where > (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it > does make sense, to me at least. > > When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a > logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my > analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a > customization option. > > Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? > > marcel Marcel, I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading environment explicitly. As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. You've just stumbled into one of them... I'd support some kind of fix, but it'd be moderately to very involved and far beyond my level of comfort with Elisp. I also agree that it'd be hard to specify. -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 17:02 ` William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:18 ` William Gardella 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline. I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper." I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it, and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to support Marcel's format too. I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem. /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is, imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short). Cheers. Fil On 27 March 2011 13:02, William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> wrote: > Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes: > >> On zo 27-mrt-2011 16:52 >> Cian <cian.oconnor@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> You can't do that, as it would be akin to trying to have in a book >>> >>> Section 1 >>> Stuff >>> Section 1.1.1 >>> More stuff >>> >>> Now this goes under Section 1 >>> >>> Not really an idiom that makes sense (I find its best to think of >>> org-mode's headings as chapter headers >> >> Agreed, for paper books that would not make much sense (depending on >> how you do it) and that fact kept me from asking the question for a >> while. >> For electronic texts however, especially in the drafting stage where >> (sub-)sections get shuffled around, promoted, demoted, split etc. it >> does make sense, to me at least. >> >> When writing I tend to think about org headings as 'handles' to a >> logical block of information, including its child blocks. Apparently my >> analogy clashes with what org-mode wants. I had my hopes on a >> customization option. >> >> Is there a strong reason this could not work as an option in org-mode? >> >> marcel > > Marcel, > > I think this is not yet easily possible in org-mode due to the > limitations of org's rather simple concept of markup. Because org tries > to stay out of the way of the user's choice of indentation flow, for > example, whitespace can't be used to indicate that your text has > returned to the top level after entering a subheading. And unlike in, > e.g., HTML or LaTeX, there's no way of "closing" the subheading > environment explicitly. > > As Cian suggests, some alternatives you can use are to employ drawers or > environments such as #+BEGIN_NOTE. > > I also use Org as a drafting tool, mostly for documents that will end up > as papers or legal documents rendered with LaTeX. There are a few > ambiguities in the markup that are hard to resolve without going the > additional step of exporting to HTML or LaTeX and editing that output. > You've just stumbled into one of them... > > I'd support some kind of fix, but it'd be moderately to very involved > and far beyond my level of comfort with Elisp. I also agree that it'd > be hard to specify. > > -- > William Gardella > J.D. Candidate > Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law > > > -- Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng. Mechanical and Industrial Engineering Ryerson University 350 Victoria St, Toronto, ON M5B 2K3, Canada Tel: 416/979-5000 ext 7749 Fax: 416/979-5265 Email: salustri@ryerson.ca http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Filippo A. Salustri @ 2011-03-27 17:18 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 20:21 ` Achim Gratz 2011-03-29 18:59 ` Matt Lundin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 17:18 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode "Filippo A. Salustri" <salustri@ryerson.ca> writes: > It seems to me we're getting into some real design territory here, in > that it comes down to a question of a "proper" outline. > I agree that a proper outline is such that Marcel's format is "improper." > I agree that org follows the proper outline, was designed to suit it, > and therefore it isn't surprising that it's not trivially easy to > support Marcel's format too. > > I would humbly suggest that the real question is a design / use case > question. Is it reasonable to expect authors to stick to proper > outline format throughout their drafting process? If it is, then org > is fine as is. If it isn't, then there's a problem. > > /How/ it's implemented, or worked around, as the case may be, is, > imho, irrelevant in the long term (tho certainly useful in the short). > > Cheers. > Fil > I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say. Of course it would have to be as pithy and unobtrusive as the rest of org-mode syntax...I'm sure it's possible (because with Elisp practically everything is possible), but out of my depth. :) -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 17:18 ` William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 20:21 ` Achim Gratz 2011-03-27 21:26 ` William Gardella 2011-03-29 18:59 ` Matt Lundin 1 sibling, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Achim Gratz @ 2011-03-27 20:21 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes: > I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all > writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be simple". > Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode > an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to > \end{section} in LaTeX, say. There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought", preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual unit that just folds away when outlined. I've been doing that with Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode. Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the "headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the headings to finalize the document into something more readable. In my experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure. However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it is easier in orgmode to do that in a list. List items can be converted into headings and vice versa quite easily. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 20:21 ` Achim Gratz @ 2011-03-27 21:26 ` William Gardella 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: William Gardella @ 2011-03-27 21:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes: > William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes: >> I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all >> writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. > > With flexibility comes complexity, which runs counter to "org should be > simple". > Agreed, but I'd say org is already one of the most complex projects in Emacs. Its *apparent* simplicity for new victims--er, users--is a feature worth keeping, of course. :) >> Maybe for this particular issue it would be enough to give org-mode >> an explicit way to "close" a heading--an Org-wide equivalent to >> \end{section} in LaTeX, say. > > There already is: you simply start a new section for each "thought", > preferrably wih no whitespace after the heading so it becomes a visual > unit that just folds away when outlined. I've been doing that with > Outline Mode and AuCTeX and it is actually much easier to do in orgmode. > Once you get your thoughts into the proper order by sorting the > "headlines", you can then insert, remove, edit, de- and promote the > headings to finalize the document into something more readable. In my > experience, there rarely is a need to change the first level structure. > However, if you are organizing the structure of your document while the > content is still largely absent, then (as has already been suggested) it > is easier in orgmode to do that in a list. List items can be converted > into headings and vice versa quite easily. > > > Regards, > Achim. I use a workflow similar to this, using subheadings to allow for easier reordering of paragraphs/thoughts. I guess it's good to keep in mind that using Org as a word processor (rather like using Gnus as a mailclient) requires some rethinking and reevaluation of how one might otherwise do things. And maybe a change in approach is a better idea when a technical fix might make org's markup or parser unnecessarily complex. -- William Gardella J.D. Candidate Class of 2011, University of Pittsburgh School of Law ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 17:18 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 20:21 ` Achim Gratz @ 2011-03-29 18:59 ` Matt Lundin 1 sibling, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-29 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw To: William Gardella; +Cc: emacs-orgmode William Gardella <gardellawg@gmail.com> writes: > > I think org-mode should aim to be flexible enough to accomodate all > writers, writing tasks, and writing styles. Maybe for this particular > issue it would be enough to give org-mode an explicit way to "close" a > heading--an Org-wide equivalent to \end{section} in LaTeX, say. Is there an \end{section} in LaTeX? Best, Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 15:02 Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K @ 2011-03-29 18:54 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-30 10:05 ` Rasmus 2011-03-30 18:26 ` Mark Elston 2 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-29 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw To: Marcel van der Boom; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Marcel van der Boom <marcel@hsdev.com> writes: > When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into > the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue > text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. > > A simplified example of such an outline would be: > > --- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 > More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 > More thoughts expressed here > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > ---- Would this work? --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- * Main headline Some thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here ** Subheading 2 More thoughts expressed here ** Main headline (cont.) I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of 'Subheading 2' --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > I've looked for documentation or customization options on this, but > haven't found any yet. What I have done so far is turn the subheadings > into lists or surround them by *bold markers*, which helps a little. Org-mode's assumptions about sections are the same as those found in outlines in general or in books or articles -- i.e., a section is terminated only another section. For nested sections you could always use xml to write your papers. ;) > The current outlining interrupts my flow of writing too often; it's > getting a nuisance. What are my options, if any, to get the outline > behaviour as above? Apart from the hack above, I would recommend inline tasks. **************** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here **************** END Best, Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-29 18:54 ` Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-30 10:05 ` Rasmus 2011-03-31 1:41 ` Matt Lundin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Rasmus @ 2011-03-30 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 > More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 > More thoughts expressed here > ** Main headline (cont.) > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- I don't understand the logic in this. In terms of final layout, do you want to have subheading appear as a "box"? Like in some (introductory) textbooks? If so, you could program a certain ** to be export as a certain type of object. You might even be able to use tags to determine how output should be formatted, like in Org-latex-beamer mode. This might require some hacking. I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for other reasons. My problem is ending * COMMENT headings. This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export): #+begin_src emacs-org * COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat annoying an illogical to me. ** Export #+TITLE: Test #+AUTHOR: me [A bunch of paper-specific #+latex_header:] ** An outline of the task at hand [...] And HERE I want to put text before the first subsection. That is beneath Title but before first section. #+end_src In terms of LaTeX I need something like: #+begin_src latex \begin{document} \maketitle This is where I want some initial text \section{first section} #+end_src Of course, I could start explicitly with a \section{intro} (i.e. * Intro) right after \maketitle/\begin{document}, but for short papers I find this is redundant. Is my style the problem or should there be a way to terminate section, maybe with an artificial new heading (similar to the :B_ignoreheading: tag)? Cheers, Rasmus ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-30 10:05 ` Rasmus @ 2011-03-31 1:41 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-31 3:25 ` Samuel Wales 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-31 1:41 UTC (permalink / raw To: Rasmus; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Rasmus <rasmus.pank@gmail.com> writes: >> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- >> * Main headline >> Some thoughts expressed here >> >> ** Subheading 1 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Subheading 2 >> More thoughts expressed here >> ** Main headline (cont.) >> >> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >> 'Subheading 2' >> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > I don't understand the logic in this. > There is no logic in it. ;) It is simply a hack to prevent the text at the bottom from being folded into "Subheading 2". If anything, it illustrates that terminating sub-entries in this way only has meaning when drafting a paper, not when publishing/exporting it. Presumably one would remove the "Main headline (cont.)" heading when exporting the piece. AFAICT, the OP is chiefly concerned about visibility when drafting -- i.e., he does not want all the text following "Subheading 2" be folded into that subheading. As pointed out by others in the thread, there is no way for html or LaTeX export to display the sort of nested logic the OP requests. Books and articles have the same logic as outlines; sections are only terminated by another section of an equal or higher level. I think it is natural that org-mode (an outlining tool) adheres to this logic, even if it means that terminated, nested subsections (à la xml) are not possible. > I do however, strongly support the idea of terminating headings, but for > other reasons. > > My problem is ending * COMMENT headings. > > This sketch the issue (in terms of LaTeX export): > #+begin_src emacs-org > * COMMENT This is were I put all my export settings, various notes and such > > it could be placed as the very last headline, but that is somewhat > annoying an illogical to me. > Moving it to the end of the outline would indeed solve these problems. But I believe it could still be the first headline. One solution would be to move any text prior to the first section above *all* the headlines (including the COMMENT headline). If you prefer, you could create a "pre-section" headline and remove it, but not its contents, via an export hook. Best, Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-31 1:41 ` Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-31 3:25 ` Samuel Wales 2011-03-31 20:04 ` Matt Lundin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 16+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2011-03-31 3:25 UTC (permalink / raw To: Matt Lundin; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Rasmus IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline exporting. Correct? So having headlines for the later stuff like this: On 2011-03-30, Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote: >>> * Main headline >>> Some thoughts expressed here >>> >>> ** Subheading 1 >>> More thoughts expressed here >>> ** Subheading 2 >>> More thoughts expressed here >>> ** Main headline (cont.) >>> ** here is a headline to make things easier to move >>> I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of >>> 'Subheading 2' should work for him. Except that the headline should not be exported. For which a tag that allows exporting the body without the headline should work. But I proposed this already and it was not the right solution for the OP. So I don't know what is desired. Likely I didn't follow the thread closely enough. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-31 3:25 ` Samuel Wales @ 2011-03-31 20:04 ` Matt Lundin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-31 20:04 UTC (permalink / raw To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Rasmus Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes: > IIUC, OP wants to move stuff around more easily and not have improper > body text folded. Improper in this case means belonging to the > grandparent but after parents. He doesn't need improper outline > exporting. > > Correct? Agreed. That's how I read it. The issue has to do with visibility and folding while editing, not with exporting (since html and latex can't render such a nested structure). Best, Matt ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
* Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections ? 2011-03-27 15:02 Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-03-29 18:54 ` Matt Lundin @ 2011-03-30 18:26 ` Mark Elston 2 siblings, 0 replies; 16+ messages in thread From: Mark Elston @ 2011-03-30 18:26 UTC (permalink / raw To: emacs-orgmode On 3/27/2011 8:02 AM, Marcel van der Boom wrote: > Hi, > > When I'm using orgmode to write out largish documents, I often run into > the outlining problem that it's apparently not possible to continue > text of a higher level outline once subsections have been started. > > A simplified example of such an outline would be: > > --- > * Main headline > Some thoughts expressed here > > ** Subheading 1 > More thoughts expressed here > ** Subheading 2 > More thoughts expressed here > > I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of > 'Subheading 2' > ---- I have been following this thread with some interest. But I must admit to being a little confused as to what is meant by the last sentence, above. If this is just a matter of indentation in the org file that can be handled by the user. Org will honor any user-specified indentation for entered text and all subsequent text will maintain the same indentation until a new heading is encountered or the user enters text with a new indentation level. If, OTOH, what is asked for is having org "understand" that the final sentence was part of the main heading so that folding subheading 2 would not fold the last sentence as well, that is something else entirely. I would suggest that the common rules of outlining should be observed so as to minimize the principle of least surprise to the end user. Org mode is, after all, an outliner (albeit one with a /lot/ of bells and whistles added for convenience). On those occasions where I ran into something similar I wound up restructuring my organization to suit. For example, the above might be better structured as: * Main headline Some thoughts expressed here ** Initial points *** Subheading 1 More thoughts expressed here *** Subheading 2 More thoughts expressed here ** Next set of points I would like to have this text part of 'Main headline', not of 'Subheading 2'. However, as it doesn't belong to the previous set of points it starts a new subsection of the 'Main headline.' etc. This seems more in line with what you were intending, anyway. Something to keep in mind here is that in the final output, unless you really jump through some hoops, there isn't going to be any difference in the text associated with the different heading levels. That is, text under "Main headline" will look (font/indentation/etc) identical to text under "Subheading 1", etc. So the only real difference is going to come from the nature of the outline and the subsequent sectioning commands in the output. Of course, if "Subheading 1/2" were changed to lists this is /not/ the case as lists are visually distinct from the surrounding text... I have recently been playing with Freemind and find it a pretty interesting alternative to a purely textual listing as in org-mode. However, mind-maps seem to be rather isomorphic with outlines in many ways and *still* follow most of the same rules (adapted for a graphical environment, of course). I guess I am just not certain how "free floating" text in an outline is to be viewed conceptually, or to be rendered in the final output. Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 16+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2011-03-31 20:04 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 16+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-03-27 17:01 Continuation of main section text after subsections ? Rustom Mody -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2011-03-27 15:02 Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 15:37 ` Jambunathan K 2011-03-27 15:52 ` Cian 2011-03-27 16:11 ` Marcel van der Boom 2011-03-27 16:34 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 16:49 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Nicolas 2011-03-27 17:10 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:02 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 17:08 ` Filippo A. Salustri 2011-03-27 17:18 ` William Gardella 2011-03-27 20:21 ` Achim Gratz 2011-03-27 21:26 ` William Gardella 2011-03-29 18:59 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-29 18:54 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-30 10:05 ` Rasmus 2011-03-31 1:41 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-31 3:25 ` Samuel Wales 2011-03-31 20:04 ` Matt Lundin 2011-03-30 18:26 ` Mark Elston
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