From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: MON KEY Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: moving more cl seq/mapping support into core Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 01:35:36 -0400 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1285997761 32049 80.91.229.12 (2 Oct 2010 05:36:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 05:36:01 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 07:36:00 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1P1ulL-0005Fd-Mr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 07:36:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45451 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P1ulK-0003z9-1w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:35:58 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=52178 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1P1ul5-0003xN-Uc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:35:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P1ul0-0004Pn-GS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:35:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:33923) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1P1ul0-0004PE-CZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2010 01:35:38 -0400 Original-Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36so4656313wyb.0 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.216.17.194 with SMTP id j44mr5249005wej.68.1285997736325; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.216.67.195 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Oct 2010 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: ebm8jwLxon2OiiYV1g_UM5jS2gQ X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:131214 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione wrote: > What are the good things/ What are the "horrible ugly thing"? What > criteria can you use to distinguish them? Maybe the better question is, in anticipation of lexical scoping which of these distinguishing criteria will no longer be relevant? Whatever the current/existing rationales may be, surely _some_ will cease to be relevant by any reasonably sane justification in lieu of lexically scoped environments. I would very much like to know now _concretely_ what the existing criteria are so that these may be revisited as the lexbind integration moves forward. cl.el is now at least 13 yrs old and the arguments precluding its integration remain largely the same as they were when Dave Gillespie advocated cl.el inclusion in core way back when. In the interim a good deal has changed with Emacs but the cl.el runtime ban still lingers... though the justifications have been allowed to shift. It is important that those willing to revisit/revise the cl.el deficiencies have a clear roadmap/guideline as to what is acceptable, why, and what the sane justifications for these guidelines are. As it is, I've made a preliminary effort to indicate those cl.el like features which are duplicated in other diverse emacs core libraries. It is clear that these features are needed/desired or they wouldn't exist. What is not clear is why if these features are desirable must they be reproduced w/ only minor modification simply to avoid the appearance of haring the cl namespace. In particular I would point to `edmacro-mismatch' as an example of such needless bending over backwards. -- /s_P\