From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Key bindings proposal Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 13:25:43 +0200 Message-ID: References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19537.40472.267000.563053@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87lj8nsndb.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <19545.14451.62000.682223@gargle.gargle.HOWL> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280921183 5166 80.91.229.12 (4 Aug 2010 11:26:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 11:26:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Uday S Reddy , "Stephen J. Turnbull" , Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: joakim@verona.se Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 04 13:26:21 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ogc71-0006fj-Jn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 13:26:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36283 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ogc71-0007X7-0C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:26:19 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=35760 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ogc6o-0007Ut-Lu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:26:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ogc6n-0002FK-Eh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:26:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qy0-f176.google.com ([209.85.216.176]:56614) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ogc6n-0002F4-5D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 07:26:05 -0400 Original-Received: by qyk34 with SMTP id 34so4046627qyk.0 for ; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:26:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EmdxPFFWT0Oz+kIJ1Ji8LO4W/+J9ffN50WSLYClRR9I=; b=odvL7/4FauI32wUhr5B0yWnitwfgrWY/HRoGr0ZFEWvqkMcDUUwTlHBv2fgcFxiQ4h ZC0LUsvD1Xju6ldX15XTYF+Jg6TNVgm9/hfvh0bjFj322A+UoD0uBwhcPc899h56L467 vTvekwmSg5NiDfANL5DCW9zHytkxdpbIB9Gsk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=j2HzGBI9RTiv6AxVntCoXd1IypCUCSKqEd4yB7Zq4yS74XmF5p7PacLDQVr1LQe4zG 1nNLmLCuZ22G38z6QfD41TjKeGIfp/Jmg4v0RuKRhf15mN1Oulw3O+LIkgNWDCNkT7op lEvKcX8tA+FDr8MXDAv8cFX+faO4NcwakJaaQ= Original-Received: by 10.229.239.3 with SMTP id ku3mr1135673qcb.129.1280921163129; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.9.84 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:25:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128225 Archived-At: On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:11 PM, wrote: > Lennart Borgman writes: > >> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 12:20 PM, =C2=A0 wrote: >>> >>> I dont understand this. I normaly have menus disabled, but I enabled >>> them now to see. In the File menu I have an entry like: >>> >>> =C2=A0"Visit new file... C-x C-f" >>> >>> Isn't that a "keyboard accelerator"? >> >> Yes, but it is not menu accelerators. Those are underlined chars in >> the menus. (At least on w32 all applications I know of have them, >> except Emacs.) > > But did you snip the part about how firefox does it here? > > Firefox does the same thing as emacs, it only uses "menu accelerators" > when it doesnt provide a specific keybinding. No. At least on w32 it normally shows both keyboard and menu accelerators in the menus. See the "View" submenu for example. > see the "organize bookmarks" example. That is a bit special since it is a list of your bookmarks. (Also a lot of add-ons in Firefox does not add menu accelerators the way the are supposed. Some add them when they should not and others omit them when they should add them.) > (As a side-note I always want to try to emacsify a program rather than > programify emacs, so I do understand the urge to arrive at a consistent > overall environment) Is not that quite a lot more work ... ;-) >>> Or do you mean there is no obvious way to traverse the menus from the >>> keyboard? Could we then promote the use of F10 already in the menu bar >>> text? (f10 is bound to menu-bar-open here) >>> >>> perhaps like the 1st line of the help menu or something: >>> >>> =C2=A0"Use F10 to start traversing menus with kbd" >> >> That is not the standard way to access menus (at least not on w32). >> You normally use the Alt key to access them. (Here too it is important >> to notice that with all applications I know of on w32 you can access >> menus that way. Except Emacs.) >> Maybe it is still good to tell about f10 since most non-Emacs users >> are not aware of that. > > I wasnt either. I sort of just stumbled about the keyboard to see if > something activated menu traversal :) > > Anyway, what would you do with emacs normal use of alt then? In my patched version of Emacs on w32 you can use the left and/or right window keys as alt instead. Some people here has said that this is just as bad since that overrides the normal use of those keys. I do not agree for two reasons: - microsoft has made it possible to override those keys totally, while you can not totally override the alt key. - using the alt key is far more common than using the windows key. > Should alt be an emacs event in itself? Maybe this is possible already? See above. > As another related side-note I would like to experiment with modal keybin= dings > in Emacs, to implement something like ctrl-lock functionality. That > would I suppose be similar to your use-case for the alt key. Except that the window manager does not let you handle all key combinations with the Alt key. (You can not override for example Alt-Tab on w32. And that is a good thing in my opinion.)