From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:37:59 +0200 Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com> <83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org> <834ofczxv2.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1280774321 5113 80.91.229.12 (2 Aug 2010 18:38:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:38:41 +0000 (UTC) Cc: levelhalom@gmail.com, Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 02 20:38:38 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzuD-0008Eg-Lk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:38:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41156 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ofzu8-0001x8-Fv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:38:28 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=35272 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ofzu2-0001wV-OR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:38:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofzu1-0007o4-Ge for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:38:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qy0-f176.google.com ([209.85.216.176]:50881) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofzu1-0007no-EU; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:38:21 -0400 Original-Received: by qyk34 with SMTP id 34so2005678qyk.0 for ; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:38:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wzJrOaRsfqLSsuk5AmK1ZfDzSY1kLwluoWNUl7QOKkw=; b=kkDlHFd/rUGEyUwLlaexxvkSy8bUPcMqTjnxqQJEmyLUR2gLVQZeSF++EOt6I6CjOZ 7FTlG6ouB1f7zlS9IWNjjy7NUXSkzpOFe2ob9NZj6WRDDqzj/8iGAO2UG+ivcEnon2XZ DvxE1muSOr6mfhHoSRPihewxbUe3LUgZY8Zco= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=M5O7qaCx1jHArEaNRz6D20v7VEV/BdQSXi/tAmG1HUjBU8BJDiSjWWnpaCZD//Icx3 v7dP9TZBUuuSMghR1dRZ8Qf4M08zK+fQINNchJwM8/ECNfRvz71Yd6BnjmoQ/dJEZjSR qvVTAnKP0bcOJhWaVHICj3lq56lVXlBZH9F2Y= Original-Received: by 10.229.10.223 with SMTP id q31mr406000qcq.280.1280774299296; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 11:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.229.9.84 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:37:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834ofczxv2.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128147 Archived-At: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > If someone needs a data point that terminology doesn't matter much, > read the manual for Vim -- it uses non-standard terminology (including > "yank", btw, and other weirdly named commands), and yet is very > popular. I think that the situation is different for Vim. For example since it uses "y" as a command prefix then talking about "yank" makes sense. And since vi basic key bindings are fixed and that is a basic idea of vi it makes even more sense. But still it disturbed me quite a lot in the beginning (but learning vi was a necessity then). > I already wrote long ago in this thread that to make Emacs more > attractive, we need to add to it hot new features that target software > developers. =C2=A0If we do that, and do it well, terminology differences > and weird keybindings will not prevent hackers to come on board, > because hackers want productivity features. Strange key bindings makes it probably harder to attract new developers and users. And that is perhaps part of the reason that Emacs is lacking some features. It seems to me that this is part of lack of coordination. Standardizing makes is easier to coordinate. It is very difficult though (and I think it is often mistaken as opposed to freedom to cusomize).