From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Bingo Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 22:01:20 +0530 Message-ID: References: <0C11D648-213E-4BF1-9095-33A3E0D6DC85@gmail.com> <87bm98owuj.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----O201O9K6REON5DGRTRSXHV9TOJ1T9Y" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536424251 2423 195.159.176.226 (8 Sep 2018 16:30:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 16:30:51 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 08 18:30:47 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyg8C-0000Vq-Ag for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 18:30:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43591 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fygAI-00051B-7P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 12:32:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45279) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fygA3-0004YE-51 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 12:32:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyg8u-0006tU-75 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 12:31:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]:46599) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyg8t-0006mD-U8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 12:31:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id b129-v6so8407300pga.13 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 09:31:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:user-agent:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:subject:to:cc:from:message-id; bh=FaagY3wd9pGwCepCCrAnpBwrpItyTVEDfkFa36sRvDE=; b=BubXa+7Fr2lyRsujqiVdDyvR1NX9VvpafX/yCSnyZ/YWabeRdgenXFY9SwJA3x/o3L HQCDkz8kqIL1kABmmQZZrMGpHbSs71j3PtAYKe+zRtxATUzSfDXzjElC5w/9nfmBL5sb bqHl+xDdz+ftLtmA7lj4EZO0z5okO4S7YY+Y+JYH10xWLW/NJwcISlildKIEIUOX/HBX HBTCYy8Jp9GrSqgU3rrAJuO/IM2jXRjvHqw+HSTvKnt2sOe04/whjjmOlkrYSe8fTexw R0mG0QA1jw52fMDzu9A+uZE95ejlri7+5kJvniRL4NGbC3qo0kNQiilc42sH2IUOT7SD qKSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:user-agent:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:subject:to:cc:from :message-id; bh=FaagY3wd9pGwCepCCrAnpBwrpItyTVEDfkFa36sRvDE=; b=LaT/zj/CZ5cALWM/cuJvobj/ewohGDWTDDGtz7l5QOa0OlLWrxVH5TmC6bgJnQ3StF YqxP1A/8K+MEbwPAW+oLMiuyyYbdV7gLqpyXvTfCo4V7yVLkGm/1wlwYe318qF2UAg2w SmHdK+Qa/wG5PQToloaMqnUyYr7tyoAj9DKKAaYt0kOoBHoINWlShRAQxhMoDxEDGnKi 9e7yjtmR2ssjjh9gfVnUwp/JYUb+fmopEfA/d3fQqfi5GiFZ7FLlmnmlEhD7F1tmkuRo x/fOQcA0VE8S2w1HzjTyyL8gUVY0pTtHQ9H/8VQgID6jj4hhELdxlmS7I5BaY3KnyHdx r7tQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51AV+T5DZgR5ZRZhTy33ma+bYQ1259Tw1DSqlRTVGdlGCwmKxE2o dJ1CIAr8Pv3LNEA+4EStLECkhmtWx1c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdawwGQVHtvj7PVLL5Yj8+6xlO6o6m+BPjX7mPK7mKqldDXUXaBRrJbi1KAESIo2TjVuyvv9mg== X-Received: by 2002:a63:df04:: with SMTP id u4-v6mr14375767pgg.434.1536424286683; Sat, 08 Sep 2018 09:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.178.10] ([139.59.3.22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a72-v6sm21509420pge.85.2018.09.08.09.31.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 08 Sep 2018 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87bm98owuj.fsf@toy.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229499 Archived-At: ------O201O9K6REON5DGRTRSXHV9TOJ1T9Y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le 8 septembre 2018 20:33:16 GMT+05:30, hw a =C3=A9crit= : >Bingo writes: > >> Can we consider changing defaults only for users who don't have any >init file at all ? > >Unexpectable behaviour of Emacs only because there is no ~/=2Eemacs would >be confusing=2E > >Which defaults is Emacs supposed to assume for settings that have not >been made in ~/=2Eemacs because the user didn't need to change them >before >the developers did? > >> This change may not solve many problems, due to two other features >of emacs :=20 > >These are problems of other editors=2E > >> 1=2E Emacs undo is frustrating for most new users=2E Correcting mistake= s >> with delete-selection-mode i=2Ee=2E restore a selection that was delete= d >> due to a mistaken delete by typing/pasting , will need them to use >> undo=2E > >Every editor that doesn't understand Emacs` key bindings and doesn't >have its functions is frustrating (to use an euphemism)=2E > >Emacs` undo sucks when you need it more than once because you have to >press two keys for it=2E Using a prefix doesn't work to make this easier >because I have no way of knowing how many times I have to use undo >before I get back to where I want to=2E It is a really bad choice=2E > >C-z can not easily be used for undo=2E Other editors should never have >used it for that anyway=2E I don't see why they would because it >suspends >the process=2E > >> 2=2E In their attempt to play with undo/redo, they might do C-y=2E Whic= h >> pastes in Emacs : but it is the key for redo in many "modern" >> editors=2E This can cause more unintended deletions in >> delete-selection-mode=2E > >This is another example of how delete-selection-mode supports making >mistakes=2E Without it, C-y seems fine=2E Shift+Insert works only in X >frames=2E > >Now imagine you change the key binding for undo and for yank when there >is no ~/=2Eemacs to make things easier for beginners=2E The beginner use= s >customize to change colours and to set a font and saves this settings=2E > >Suddenly undo and yank --- and perhaps lots of other things --- "don't >work" anymore because the key bindings have changed=2E Does that make >things easier for beginners --- or more difficult? I have clarified here : https://lists=2Egnu=2Eorg/archive/html/emacs-devel= /2018-09/msg00330=2Ehtml=2E Absence of init file is to be noticed only once= =2E=20 At other places in your email, is it sarcasm ? Thanks ------O201O9K6REON5DGRTRSXHV9TOJ1T9Y Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le 8 septembre 2018 20:= 33:16 GMT+05:30, hw <hw@adminart=2Enet> a =C3=A9crit :
Bingo <right=2Eho@gmail=2Ecom> writes:

=

   Can we consider changin=
g defaults only for users who don't have any init file at all ?

Unexpectable behaviour of Emacs only because there is no ~/=2Eemac=
s would
be confusing=2E

Which defaults is Emacs supposed to assum=
e for settings that have not
been made in ~/=2Eemacs because the user di=
dn't need to change them before
the developers did?

   This change may not solve many probl=
ems, due to two other features of emacs : 

These are pr=
oblems of other editors=2E

 1=2E Emacs undo is frustrating for most new users=2E Correcting =
mistakes
 with delete-selection-mode i=2Ee=2E restore a selection that w=
as deleted
 due to a mistaken delete by typing/pasting , will need them =
to use
 undo=2E

Every editor that doesn't understand=
 Emacs` key bindings and doesn't
have its functions is frustrating (to u=
se an euphemism)=2E

Emacs` undo sucks when you need it more than onc=
e because you have to
press two keys for it=2E  Using a prefix doesn't w=
ork to make this easier
because I have no way of knowing how many times =
I have to use undo
before I get back to where I want to=2E  It is a real=
ly bad choice=2E

C-z can not easily be used for undo=2E  Other edito=
rs should never have
used it for that anyway=2E  I don't see why they wo=
uld because it suspends
the process=2E

 2=2E In their attempt to play with undo/redo, they =
might do C-y=2E Which
 pastes in Emacs : but it is the key for redo in m=
any "modern"
 editors=2E This can cause more unintended deletions in
=
 delete-selection-mode=2E

This is another example of ho=
w delete-selection-mode supports making
mistakes=2E  Without it, C-y see=
ms fine=2E  Shift+Insert works only in X
frames=2E

Now imagine yo=
u change the key binding for undo and for yank when there
is no ~/=2Eema=
cs to make things easier for beginners=2E  The beginner uses
customize t=
o change colours and to set a font and saves this settings=2E

Sudden=
ly undo and yank --- and perhaps lots of other things --- "don't
work" a=
nymore because the key bindings have changed=2E  Does that make
things e=
asier for beginners --- or more difficult?

I have clarified here : https://lists=2Egnu=2E= org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2018-09/msg00330=2Ehtml=2E Absence of init= file is to be noticed only once=2E

At other places in your email, is it sarcasm ?

Thanks ------O201O9K6REON5DGRTRSXHV9TOJ1T9Y--