From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Someone start maintaining luddites.el Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:06:17 -0800 Message-ID: References: <2BB5D34A-49FF-4EDC-81BA-1C9881E15276@gmail.com> <87r19wszuh.fsf@yahoo.com> <5C889C0D-5692-495B-8594-59324636B28A@gmail.com> <87mtkjubzv.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 15.0 \(3693.40.0.1.81\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16348"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs , Stefan Monnier To: Po Lu Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 29 09:06:52 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Tz2-00047H-IT for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 09:06:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46892 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2Tz0-0005JP-Om for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 03:06:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50188) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2TyY-0005JH-IU for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 03:06:22 -0500 Original-Received: from [2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c] (port=40748 helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n2TyW-0001b0-Me for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 03:06:22 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id o63-20020a17090a0a4500b001b1c2db8145so23896397pjo.5 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:06:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=puViOVzxpPrdk5vCuhLhRT7/FDY67mZtyDQHtxSUV3Q=; b=Z0iHjoDQAihYgIfSavp5lEi0U2YtA9VYtsbKGjEDInmdlnoYUgnSeg4rWIKEFmyukf s8jAC9U3j1z58tuz7YmSzJFiJK2QQY4KCKlDNKJ+H9V452A/rZ5npJ8pJCZBmm5QQ7SB WN40Dwz6oeABxxZ3efNoG58bldt5Sj998rzCk5qiYGfrIDJyH4ZEdoc95K8MZEx8fWc5 kvlijDnkfwF6NpkPPdlgxs4MyEzjNVa8kHP2XI0VPTqwjpuPY6Skeef/M2Gc4AF7mP0q d0+o+GhixbbtUmfiePcPpr/n4bZIccf51bmG4XPM6MDU8mUtWK2URQcS6md5Dkj2lcfE gxgw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=puViOVzxpPrdk5vCuhLhRT7/FDY67mZtyDQHtxSUV3Q=; b=MAg7fwxKr2NtDOFZsOby2VAAHTc1Tui5HIrYX35Ehmm/cl3em1myIgfylg5DoJQWJG bgNVS34cK1PJXq2L88JaGDtByG/HEXlS2bf7FaS9wmMZM9gxi2y9lL/FR3/Z/EFqfpAX 2DNAHZrrJs0zrO+yhYCwAJ6a07l17Q9ONFMycRFUZljPAkVA919H+v9lLDKseIUX+HvW hmR9nVtcnjHGTc9X46o3qkoy9xHfg7Z6lAPx9s57K//M6IRDfFouZNgFh1sqjEhje/Y1 +en1SNHkt6fAKW/nr9aaQ0WDiIfO79IhpRoTfJqbWbZOuVtNHxhkUxrIW4A6PHn6Effo smtg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531GgxlOh9Ga5FAEf6h9tbCeUkjcQ5yUnO6T9ow5m4B7sjl9hS/s lENinsqt/l/tFxeEl437xHg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfkrXErKvFGkPeijM7CUzuda23CKtj9EHvwpXU8XFHrWhs2aofFWtB+/nX82XI+QznPWnZIQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2448:b0:149:2de5:96c7 with SMTP id l8-20020a170903244800b001492de596c7mr25325778pls.115.1640765179253; Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:06:19 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:1700:2ec7:8c90:24f3:d1ba:1a42:bbf6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm22265989pjs.2.2021.12.29.00.06.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Dec 2021 00:06:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87mtkjubzv.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3693.40.0.1.81) X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:135064 Archived-At: > On Dec 28, 2021, at 11:05 PM, Po Lu wrote: >=20 > Yuan Fu writes: >=20 >> Probably only variable and faces are emulated, when possible. And I >> don=E2=80=99t understand why you need to remember anything to use = such a mode: >> it removes changes. If anything, it should only allow you not need to >> remember things. >=20 > No, it means I will have to read not only NEWS but also the Antinews > after each upgrade, and then decide which version of Emacs to have = mine > emulate. Even if you don=E2=80=99t read NEWS, you know what the mode does: it = keeps Emacs behave the same as it currently is. So you shouldn=E2=80=99t = need to remember or read or understand anything. And again, if you = don=E2=80=99t like it, you don=E2=80=99t have to use it. So I don=E2=80=99= t think it adds any burden to you. >>> Such a compatibility layer will probably have to be constantly = updated >>> as well to fit with changes in later versions of Emacs. >=20 >> That=E2=80=99s not much work, the changes to default values of = variables and >> faces are not that much in each release. >=20 > If my gut feeling is right, this feature will be used as an excuse to > make more of those changes. I think the effectiveness of this mode, in terms of support of adding = changes, would be equivalent to =E2=80=9Cyou can add a line of code to = .emacs to revert it=E2=80=9D. Ie, not much different from the status = quo. It=E2=80=99s just AFTER the change is made, one=E2=80=99s life is = easier if he decides that he don=E2=80=99t want any of that. >> And we only need record the change in each release, reverting to >> defaults of prior releases only need to concatenate the change in = each >> release together. >=20 > What if a variable is made obsolete in the meantime? Or if the list = of > understood meanings change? If a variable is removed, we can=E2=80=99t help it. But if it is = removed, there must be very good reason to do so and it must has been = obsoleted for many years, ie, it=E2=80=99s due time. If it is just = obsolete, resetting it shouldn=E2=80=99t hurt anything. >> First, that solution is not very good: people have different opinions >> of when default values are due. >=20 > Then let's see which causes the smallest mob of people who complain. I don=E2=80=99t quite understand that. What are you referring to as = =E2=80=9Cwhich=E2=80=9D? >=20 >> Third, I don=E2=80=99t think adding this feature will make Emacs = change >> default values when they are not due. If anything, the mode only = helps >> people who don=E2=80=99t want Emacs to change: instead of adding code = to >> .emacs, now you only need to turn this mode on. >=20 > How is changing a switch with custom different in principle from = adding > code to init.el? They are equivalent, but a switch is more convenient. The whole point (I = think) is that it=E2=80=99s equivalent to adding code to init.el, but = more convenient: you don=E2=80=99t need to figure out what code to add, = you don=E2=80=99t need to maintain the code, you don=E2=80=99t need to = remember what that code does and why it is added, etc. Do you agree with my claim that adding this feature will not make Emacs = change default values when they are not due? Yuan