From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Discoverability (was: Changes for 28) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <9ea72b0f-7799-4b17-b165-15cf453a2a62@default> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10907"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org, Tom Gillespie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 10 18:54:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGPpg-0002ja-HJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:54:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54578 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGPpf-0000bI-Ju for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:53:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33836) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGPp2-00008Y-J6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:53:20 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:34230) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGPp0-0004G4-F8; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:53:19 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08AGmZrd110967; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:53:14 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=CdzQFsEEZqCZIe6FBnvEyfH4xjsE3r6neQkUiwu2mCA=; b=lbZEAW+HVxy3Jiea+O6d9onh4OYgrAMY0iceHjajUnN3Hg/iKKTbK36MngQVOIf0qnzZ iR63o81aDk+I51Cjxsitf8UpjrIdnDB4Np2wk1RotBH/zlRI9oUBhXe7m1PLF9YmJnZg o1Q2QGl/Um4l0chCNhT4rOJUOBgLHVw646VMi+Nb58du5/n5+wnfFaCjY0VYevaz3lH5 /NKSRFlEqpApoLpkCuB6teerZLq+ggD+HUTVtN3AS9vAHi8IbbTmeI21DpE7SeasbkqA BZUIzlyv1j0UON87L0cF0m8gx0dc5OMAzh6cxJVE/mTG5E+mz9g9239HxpgaheQphIgq rQ== Original-Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33c2mm9bpb-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:53:14 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 08AGoSVP001209; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:53:14 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 33cmm1c2x9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:53:13 +0000 Original-Received: from abhmp0007.oracle.com (abhmp0007.oracle.com [141.146.116.13]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 08AGrCDw019140; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:53:13 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5044.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9740 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009100156 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9740 signatures=668679 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2006250000 definitions=main-2009100155 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=141.146.126.78; envelope-from=drew.adams@oracle.com; helo=aserp2120.oracle.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/10 12:53:16 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255017 Archived-At: >> 1. Add the Describe sub-menu to the top in addition to having it as a >> sub-menu in Help. >=20 > These are very good ideas. 1 and 2 are quite concrete -- I think > people could go off right now and implement them, figuring out the > details along the way. Why is #1 a good idea? IIUC, the suggestion is to create a separate menu-bar menu for Describe. To me, Help > Describe makes a lot of sense. It's not single-click, but it's main purpose is discoverability - in particular, discovering keys that describe things. Menu-bar space is a scarce resource, especially when mode-specific menus are added. If we were really eager to sacrifice menu-bar space by adding more menus there, especially ones that would be shown in all modes, I can imagine more important ones to add (Search, for example, which can include Replace and more items). (And other Edit submenus, such as Go To and Bookmarks could reasonably be moved to File; they're not particularly about editing.)