From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:20:21 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <9cfc3b63-7df6-145a-8a78-e3320b6d3861@cs.ucla.edu> References: <93463227-33a8-85a0-fd19-8b29b75997f3@yandex.ru> <969b3497-0afd-d104-6792-d744d31548fa@cs.ucla.edu> <2935ec84-bdea-2e20-01b9-8ed08cc61c6c@yandex.ru> <669981e5-f601-5c18-1a8b-ee316ad001ec@cs.ucla.edu> <4b8b7e98-029e-58ac-59ff-6cd984b7eb85@yandex.ru> <530d3597-aaaa-f019-bafa-8229d13e7248@yandex.ru> <60b88f52-c50d-c57a-9ce5-495e6157d36e@cs.ucla.edu> <0721d8c1-4fe3-335c-7dbc-171487cb648a@yandex.ru> <6d1015da-0dc1-376c-f84b-5e3ee3149213@cs.ucla.edu> <286139d2-bbe1-2d5a-bec1-f781666376f1@yandex.ru> <10b89e6f-6fa6-f855-65b6-3361a74472d3@cs.ucla.edu> <8542efe2-c4a6-1da5-2513-7ffcaa6c4ec9@yandex.ru> <293d0eab-4617-08fe-aafa-d6841a750af0@cs.ucla.edu> <4085994e-f42d-b90f-9c86-ad42689bbff2@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="73657"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Michael Heerdegen , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 40671@debbugs.gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 28 21:21:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jTVnG-000J3z-7f for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 21:21:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46344 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTVnF-0002sY-6T for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:20:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id t8rFYayOh2Vi; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2131416008E; Tue, 28 Apr 2020 12:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Autocrypt: addr=eggert@cs.ucla.edu; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgptUUlOQkV5QWNtUUJFQURB QXlIMnhvVHU3cHBHNUQzYThGTVpFb243NGRDdmM0K3ExWEEySjJ0QnkycHdhVHFmCmhweHhk R0E5Smo1MFVKM1BENGJTVUVnTjh0TFowc2FuNDdsNVhUQUZMaTI0NTZjaVNsNW04c0thSGxH ZHQ5WG0KQUF0bVhxZVpWSVlYL1VGUzk2ZkR6ZjR4aEVtbS95N0xiWUVQUWRVZHh1NDd4QTVL aFRZcDVibHRGM1dZRHoxWQpnZDdneDA3QXV3cDdpdzdlTnZub0RUQWxLQWw4S1lEWnpiRE5D UUdFYnBZM2VmWkl2UGRlSStGV1FONFcra2doCnkrUDZhdTZQcklJaFlyYWV1YTdYRGRiMkxT MWVuM1NzbUUzUWpxZlJxSS9BMnVlOEpNd3N2WGUvV0szOEV6czYKeDc0aVRhcUkzQUZINmls QWhEcXBNbmQvbXNTRVNORnQ3NkRpTzFaS1FNcjlhbVZQa25qZlBtSklTcWRoZ0IxRApsRWR3 MzRzUk9mNlY4bVp3MHhmcVQ2UEtFNDZMY0ZlZnpzMGtiZzRHT1JmOHZqRzJTZjF0azVlVThN Qml5Ti9iClowM2JLTmpOWU1wT0REUVF3dVA4NGtZTGtYMndCeHhNQWhCeHdiRFZadWR6eERa SjFDMlZYdWpDT0pWeHEya2wKakJNOUVUWXVVR3FkNzVBVzJMWHJMdzYrTXVJc0hGQVlBZ1Jy NytLY3dEZ0JBZndoU In-Reply-To: <4085994e-f42d-b90f-9c86-ad42689bbff2@yandex.ru> Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:179243 Archived-At: On 4/28/20 11:46 AM, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > That sounds like something we have to fix. Yes, absolutely, though we can't feasibly do that before the next release. > That's not a constant, that's an eldritch abomination. I say "constant", you say "eldritch". :-) > Using semantics that might be "slightly familiar" > only to grizzled C programmers is also bad. It's not just "slightly familiar" to grizzled C/C++/etc. programmers. It's a concept that's pretty much part of their daily lives. > There is a particular kind of values called fizzleworp (see {String literals}, {Quote} and {Backquote}), which are dangerous to modify. Let's not go that route. It'd be overdocumenting internal details that are not generally known. I don't know all the details, so I couldn't write all that documentation without a lot of nontrivial investigation. And these details are likely to change so users should not rely on them anyway. Instead of going out into the wilderness and tagging and identifying each dragon and its lair, the documentation should keep things simple and merely say "there are dragons out in the wilderness; you shouldn't go there". This is much simpler and easier to understand and maintain, and is safer overall. > Lisp form literals, and any members of such forms. I might be forgetting something, but this list is not too long, is it? Yes the list isn't *that* long, and it's in the documentation already - as long as we are willing to put up with a conservative list (e.g., you shouldn't modify anything in the list) rather than insisting on an exhaustive list (e.g., here's what happens if you try to modify X, here's what happens if you try to modify Y, etc.).