From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Adam Porter Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: dape Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 09:53:46 -0500 Message-ID: <9c36914f-dd2b-4701-8553-58f9225fc247@alphapapa.net> References: <83msvt4nxu.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30381"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cc: adam@alphapapa.net, daniel@dpettersson.net, dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org, joaotavora@gmail.com, john@yates-sheets.org, krister.schuchardt@gmail.com, philipk@posteo.net To: eliz@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Nov 04 15:54:45 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qzI2u-0007cr-GO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 15:54:45 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qzI2A-0006b2-DG; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 10:53:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qzI28-0006ac-RK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 10:53:56 -0400 Original-Received: from buffalo.tulip.relay.mailchannels.net ([23.83.218.24]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qzI27-00050a-2E; Sat, 04 Nov 2023 10:53:56 -0400 X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|adam@alphapapa.net Original-Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65656761B9F; Sat, 4 Nov 2023 14:53:51 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a206.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id C7CEF7616E3; Sat, 4 Nov 2023 14:53:49 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1699109629; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=UvnmJ80AMUtbxavf3a9ZD1tkJR9YgHIj+5+XI2pVDqV8BfPIUO4Pnkj43znLgX+J71WsKS +5Y5bJbSWDsQhhac3OonThzUTkrBQjBttqbFwH3qrESfCCPqbDYHgs5KpID4Gm22VBq2zv 1ypzimbZicUgLD7bz2nQQf2Nr8/GZh8NvCO+h5sgTOD4Z4i5kKLMU3Nlr+Ey9Jx6pGwk1k f8gV1FLyl5zfDQyRAvHFN1LxHaR4ZQlyIEu4ppIX0LOXuxsc1JjoRIpAli7lhiAkRqMOc8 TJ+hsunjJR0UTEFDLZAJB1YLCXNLlvJMm0i5oUwdMcGbOYxC3V+ax2yHhV6x4g== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1699109629; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=B71Ko9kd6YpxMq/HRRHA/+6iuPTTGpNiX4YubAntYTg=; b=Z4ERFBU1ArmYLJ1VZCVZY8A2RwJU9u1pHZhNljOl8WP71w/j8MCsSl98Xb9WoCUJtk7zYR I+DxhzbWXkDT0g1sXH/UXFAWNN/kAUYs3O3aMTyWvw+UqydlA6X61qciKIz97Nzz6la1OQ 0OKIU9dsnNvabKO+df2H9lyT8At4cDfHG5XyIZHyBcwZFJNqkSwzQLLZlTILCSPIzPW2DX hcgNLVjsW9pD4W7Qe6Yggc1maRZW4t7Yi2cxxWgCdEUtc7wDLynk3cI3AMMzaGohd58ECi ny2kgJ1uLZVJ6oScJxFfrc1YdiRGZ9KCgnyn5yFrIMYIMdofrQw5SRJrW+U50g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-7b5f9b5465-wvzg2; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=adam@alphapapa.net X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|adam@alphapapa.net X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|adam@alphapapa.net X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Shrill-Whispering: 5beedf5b4ed531e9_1699109631244_60433235 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1699109631244:3572772744 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1699109631244 Original-Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a206.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.105.128.187 (trex/6.9.2); Sat, 04 Nov 2023 14:53:51 +0000 Original-Received: from [10.43.2.102] (unknown [193.56.116.15]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: adam@alphapapa.net) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a206.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4SN0x83KWZzDg; Sat, 4 Nov 2023 07:53:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=alphapapa.net; s=dreamhost; t=1699109629; bh=B71Ko9kd6YpxMq/HRRHA/+6iuPTTGpNiX4YubAntYTg=; h=Date:To:Cc:Subject:From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=wdvwg/1WpSr0NAu0mYqX5cawAJSD01IDtIf3Ho52xnNrQxZU+WSq8LMWUMqSkv9FY BqbbBSJxzl3VSmbR/Nfk4kMGIHJ+EHUrhG6Xa+/Ouib5j/HGmiGTNH7CdQEojOY64e P47Kgta4JDSXgHdpP+ktu5FWgKQaZjDut17p8I0Xu/oJ5xxlDDRbqimEGcFf2X6FP0 hK/mXsu5yXVIR87CpERV2HuANUk02+GYQ7JJ3sseQlgvwr3icBPwMEYAY1m+UpAOqk 0dnMCvohpwxHtI8IUZEHpJJE8MHjv55uhray2nGwWd+pdf/+IXBNYr/Lfn503p66Ir vg0JIU4yDrGOg== Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <83msvt4nxu.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: neutral client-ip=23.83.218.24; envelope-from=adam@alphapapa.net; helo=buffalo.tulip.relay.mailchannels.net X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312217 Archived-At: Hello Eli, >> Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2023 08:46:35 -0500 Cc: Dmitry Gutov >> , John Yates , Krister >> Schuchardt , emacs-devel@gnu.org, >> philipk@posteo.net From: Adam Porter >> >> While friendly, gentle suggestions are ok, the pressure being put >> on authors in this process is unbecoming, to say the least. > > Please stop the insinuations. There's no pressure. We are asking > authors to consider changing the names, that's all; if they don't > agree, the issue is dropped on the floor. I don't mean to insinuate. I mean to share observations and experiences. You and others may not intend to pressure authors, but when a thread bikeshedding a name goes on for 10 or 20 messages with numerous authors piling on their own hues, it can feel, to the author, like he is being pressured to change his mind, or that his contribution is being, well, taken away, to an extent. This is especially so when it is not made clear, up front, that the author's decision will be accepted in the end, even if he politely declines to rename the library. This is not only my own experience. The way this issue recurs when packages are submitted is noticed in the wider community, and it harms GNU ELPA's reputation. I report this observation with the intent to help, not to insinuate or insult. > It is, after all, our prerogative and even our job, out of the wish > to serve our users better, to try to have packages with reasonably > self-explanatory names where possible. As I've said numerous times on this list, I agree with that principle. > You don't have to like it, but at least please respect our views on > that and our perspective. Your flat rejection of it is unbecoming, to > say the least. As I've said numerous times on this list, including in the past few days, I do not reject your view, flatly or otherwise. Please don't misrepresent my view, either. My view is that a name should be chosen with respect to various criteria; a name's being self-explanatory is one of them, but is not the only, nor even the highest, concern. To try to make this message productive, I have a concrete suggestion: When a package is submitted to GNU ELPA, and it is suggested that the author consider renaming it, it should be made clear at the time that the suggestion is merely that, and that the author's final decision will be accepted. That would likely help to defuse any feelings of pressure that might be felt as the discussion proceeds (and perhaps even make the author more receptive to suggestions). Thanks, Adam