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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309940 Archived-At: --5a931375e343409084348f5b860f66b4 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone! I had decided at first to ignore this thread, given I'm on vacation this= week, but its overall tone and directly really forced me to write somet= hing here. (I have to admit I'm extremely upset while writing this email) 1. I was accused of being "hostile" at some point, but if this thread is= "friendly" and "constructive" I've been living in some fantasy world. R= epeatedly it has been claimed that: - The maintainers of the Clojure tooling for Emacs don't know what it's = best for it (even if the end users have been happy with their work for a= very long time and there's big structure already in place to support th= e existing tooling) - The Emacs core team developers are the only people who know what's bes= t for the Clojure tooling - everyone else is "short-sighted", "unreasona= ble", "aggressive", etc. - It doesn't matter what name they chose for an alternative package, as = the pains of the end users are probably not important. Yeah, if you inst= all a mode named "clojure-mode" that doesn't happen to work with some ot= her packages depending on "clojure-mode" that's perfectly fine in terms = of user experience, right?=20 2. Suddenly people who have not touched Clojure have realized that Cloju= re is a very important language and it needs to be supported by Emacs OO= TB. Where were you in the past 15 years? Would you have thought of Cloju= re at all if we haven't bothered to submit the Clojure packages to NonGN= U ELPA? (which started all those conversations) Don't bother to answer h= ere - I think that's quite obvious.=20 I'm still waiting to see a single actual Clojure user making the case th= at something will be gained by going in the direction that the Emacs dev= elopers have been pushing for for the past few weeks.=20 3. Why do you accuse me of having "my way or the highway" attitude when = you repeated ignore me and Danny and just power on with whatever you bel= ieve to be right? Don't you think that dismissing other people's opinion= s in such a hostile way might be a bit counter-productive?=20 4. I also learned that 15 years of work don't amount to much (according = to you) and we can easily get more or less the same experience with 20 l= ines of code and LSP. From people who are not actually using Clojure in= any capacity (at least to my knowledge) I've been nothing but a champion of Emacs for 20 years now, yet I feel I= 'm being treated as an ignorant buffoon here, who wants to do (or not do= ) things out of sheer spite and stupidity. If that your idea of building= a community - fine by me, but I don't want to be a part of this. Afterw= ards don't argue that people like me are "uncollaborative", "short-sight= ed", "combative" or whatever else you believe to be the case. =20 Instead of having a civilized conversation here, I've felt that it's onl= y "we know better" and to hell with how things used to happen. Sure, you= can do whatever you want, but I think that no one will be better off if= things in the community happen in this forceful manner.=20 I know all of you believe you're trying to solve a problem here, but fro= m my perspective you're creating a problem when there was none. The road= to hell is paved with good intentions indeed... In Emacs We Trust! M-x forever! On Sat, Sep 2, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > Danny Freeman writes: >=20 > > I don't think so. CIDER and clojure-mode are developed in lock-step, > > along side a couple other projects written in clojure to support CID= ER > > from within the clojure repl process. The API is just the functions = that > > CIDER calls from clojure-mode. If you want more information you will= be > > best off reading the CIDER source. >=20 > OK. So at some point, if you want your new clojure-ts-mode to be > integrated with CIDER, a more formalized API will have to emerge for > your new mode to adhere to. It would be a good service to everybody to > take opportunity to document it and formalize it. >=20 > > I see your other message where you discovered some of my reasoning, = and=20 > > I feel I've already explained my position. You will also see a later > > message where I said once clojure-ts-mode is in a more "done" state I > > will revisit the question of inclusion here with other clojure-mode > > devs. Until then I will continue to develop clojure-ts-mode in the > > clojure-emacs github organization with the intention of integrating = it > > with the rest of the clojure-emacs tooling. >=20 > AFAIK, putting your clojure-ts-mode in GNU Elpa core GNU Emacs does > _not_ collide with the practice of developing in a GitHub organization > nor with your intention of integration with some specific tooling... >=20 > I've had a look at clojure-ts-mode and is seems very young indeed. Is > there any reason you didn't derive from lisp-data-mode? I think you > should at least reuse lisp-data-mode-syntax-table instead of listing a > very large entry that essentially repeats it. >=20 > I am curious about the performance and capabilities of tree sitter in > Lisp modes. Lisp modes are perhaps the easiest modes things to parse > and the ones Emacs has better support for. >=20 > Jo=C3=A3o >=20 >=20 --5a931375e343409084348f5b860f66b4 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone!

I had decided at first to ignore this thread,= given I'm on vacation this week, but its overall tone and directly real= ly forced me to write something here. (I have to admit I'm extremely ups= et while writing this email)

1. I was accus= ed of being "hostile" at some point, but if this thread is "friendly" an= d "constructive" I've been living in some fantasy world. Repeatedly it h= as been claimed that:

- The maintainers of = the Clojure tooling for Emacs don't know what it's best for it (even if = the end users have been happy with their work for a very long time and t= here's big structure already in place to support the existing tooling)
- The Emacs core team developers are the only people who kn= ow what's best for the Clojure tooling - everyone else is "short-sighted= ", "unreasonable", "aggressive", etc.
- It doesn't matter = what name they chose for an alternative package, as the pains of the end= users are probably not important. Yeah, if you install a mode named "cl= ojure-mode" that doesn't happen to work with some other packages dependi= ng on "clojure-mode" that's perfectly fine in terms of user experience, = right?

2. Suddenly people who have not tou= ched Clojure have realized that Clojure is a very important language and= it needs to be supported by Emacs OOTB. Where were you in the past 15 y= ears? Would you have thought of Clojure at all if we haven't bothered to= submit the Clojure packages to NonGNU ELPA? (which started all those co= nversations) Don't bother to answer here - I think that's quite obvious.=

I'm still waiting to see a single actual = Clojure user making the case that something will be gained by going in t= he direction that the Emacs developers have been pushing for for the pas= t few weeks.

3. Why do you accuse me of ha= ving "my way or the highway" attitude when you repeated ignore me and Da= nny and just power on with whatever you believe to be right? Don't you t= hink that dismissing other people's opinions in such a hostile way might= be a bit counter-productive?

4. I also le= arned that 15 years of work don't amount to much (according to you) and = we can easily get more or less the same experience with 20 lines of code= and LSP.  From people who are not actually using Clojure in any ca= pacity (at least to my knowledge)

I've been= nothing but a champion of Emacs for 20 years now, yet I feel I'm being = treated as an ignorant buffoon here, who wants to do (or not do) things = out of sheer spite and stupidity. If that your idea of building a commun= ity - fine by me, but I don't want to be a part of this. Afterwards don'= t argue that people like me are "uncollaborative", "short-sighted", "com= bative" or whatever else you believe to be the case. 

Instead of having a civilized conversation here, I've f= elt that it's only "we know better" and to hell with how things used to = happen. Sure, you can do whatever you want, but I think that no one will= be better off if things in the community happen in this forceful manner= .

I know all of you believe you're trying = to solve a problem here, but from my perspective you're creating a probl= em when there was none. The road to hell is paved with good intentions i= ndeed...

In Emacs We Trust! M-x forever!

On Sat, Sep 2, 2023, at 11:14 AM, Jo=C3=A3o T= =C3=A1vora wrote:
Danny Freeman <danny@d= freeman.email> writes:

> I don't = think so. CIDER and clojure-mode are developed in lock-step,
> along side a couple other projects written in clojure to support= CIDER
> from within the clojure repl process. The API = is just the functions that
> CIDER calls from clojure-m= ode. If you want more information you will be
> best of= f reading the CIDER source.

OK.  So at= some point, if you want your new clojure-ts-mode to be
in= tegrated with CIDER, a more formalized API will have to emerge for
your new mode to adhere to.  It would be a good service to= everybody to
take opportunity to document it and formaliz= e it.

> I see your other message where y= ou discovered some of my reasoning, and 
> I feel = I've already explained my position. You will also see a later
<= div>> message where I said once clojure-ts-mode is in a more "done" s= tate I
> will revisit the question of inclusion here wi= th other clojure-mode
> devs. Until then I will continu= e to develop clojure-ts-mode in the
> clojure-emacs git= hub organization with the intention of integrating it
>= with the rest of the clojure-emacs tooling.

AFAIK, putting your clojure-ts-mode in GNU Elpa core GNU Emacs does
_not_ collide with the practice of developing in a GitHub or= ganization
nor with your intention of integration with som= e specific tooling...

I've had a look at cl= ojure-ts-mode and is seems very young indeed.  Is
the= re any reason you didn't derive from lisp-data-mode? I think you
should at least reuse lisp-data-mode-syntax-table instead of list= ing a
very large entry that essentially repeats it.

I am curious about the performance and capabiliti= es of tree sitter in
Lisp modes.  Lisp modes are perh= aps the easiest modes things to parse
and the ones Emacs h= as better support for.

Jo=C3=A3o
<= div>


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