From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Key bindings proposal Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <9EE29C62715348488CAB8F53DB628DD4@us.oracle.com> References: <19534.1494.627000.357123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <176EDAD3B9E54E39870FA3F84A5DDF3C@us.oracle.com> <19542.56658.583000.394397@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19544.1015.468000.280770@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.30901.687000.971249@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19546.47167.15000.439215@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <87fwys7qao.fsf@telefonica.net> <87hbj8qvd9.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87iq3k68ye.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <874of466rj.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87pqxsbrie.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <19556.28233.750000.798692@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <19557.2279.703000.707743@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4E5480A100044AD58D82F16054CA3CF9@us.oracle.com> <9B6519017AC2466090BA05B2ED7DB0D3@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1281744108 26864 80.91.229.12 (14 Aug 2010 00:01:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:01:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 'Uday S Reddy' , 'Chong Yidong' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Juanma Barranquero' To: "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 14 02:01:45 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok4Bz-0000up-KN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 02:01:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36246 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ok4By-0003aM-Pk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:01:42 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=42314 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ok4Bl-0003Xb-LB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:01:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok4Bj-00060v-WA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:01:29 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:22138) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok4Bj-00060q-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:01:27 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o7E01Kxx003460 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:01:21 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt353.oracle.com (acsmt353.oracle.com [141.146.40.153]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o7DGmDVM017431; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 00:01:14 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt019.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 516058521281744069; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:01:09 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.159.218.59) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:01:09 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 Thread-Index: Acs7AtIJ9ZJyx9CqQrydMp3mK6QuKwABx8Cg X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:128644 Archived-At: > >> > I would even guess that most Windows users never use the > >> > ALT key in a Windows-specific way (except for CONTROL-ALT-DELETE) > >> > and never use the Window key at all. =A0For one thing, most are = not > >> > programmers (another guess), and most interact with Windows using > >> > the mouse most of the time, not the keyboard. =A0And > >> > my guess is that _very_ few (proportionally) users of > >> > Windows use menu accelerators. > >> > >> Here is a lesson from MS on using MS Word: > >> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/word-help/ > >> work-with-the-keyboard-RZ006078589.aspx?section=3D9 > >> > >> It mentions explicitly Alt+Letter. > > > > So what? =A0No one said that menu accelerators do not _exist_. > > And no one said that Microsoft has no doc describing them. >=20 > This is the way MS Word users are educated. Sorry, my friend (sincerely), but that is nonsense. 99.999999999% of = Windows users have never, ever, ever, ever read that doc section, I am sure. = And very, very few Windows users make use of menu accelerators. No, I have no stats to back that up. But I'm stickin to it. ;-) My impression is that you have a very narrow view of the average Windows = user, even the average Windows programmer. Most do not use menu accelerators, = or ALT-TABbing, or sticky keys. They just don't. Sorry. My sister, who uses Word, never heard of any of those, and she would not = dream of using any of them if I told her they existed. Your sister too, no = doubt. > People who are mostly programmers or similar might never learn that > kind of things. Hey, if those who are mostly programmers don't use them, AND the average point-and-click user doesn't use them either, then who are you so = worried about? It wouldn't be just yourself, would it? > I do not know. But where I was working on the > technical university people actually wrote a lot of text too. (And > they used tools like MS Words.) Hey, where I work now and at other places I've worked in the past, lots = of people use Word too. I've never known _any_ who use menu accelerators. = I've known only a few who use ALT-TAB etc., and they were all programmers. Different people use the same tools differently. Including Emacs. = That's why I support giving users such things as you've mentioned (as optional = behavior). I really think the only real question is how that could be done (implementation/design). I sure cannot speak for Yidong - hell, we = disagree on nearly everything (!), but I would not be surprised if he were _not_ = really opposed to giving users such options. My guess is that he does not like the sound of the implementation = changes it would seem to require to provide these options. Why do I think that, even though he said that he was not in favor of = providing such an option? Because every time we start to get into the details of = how it might be done there ensues a conversation where you say that you have = already done it all - but others do not agree. They say "Where's the beef?" and = you say "It's all there, look for yourself and figure it out", and 'round you = all go in circles. Or else you say something like you've done it all but there are still = some problems to be worked out. Do you remember how we got to discussing menu accelerators? It was I = who mentioned "menus, menus, menus" in response to Uday who was saying that = it is too difficult to discover commands and keys in Emacs. And later it was I who mentioned that you (Lennart) have already = implemented Windows menu accelerators for Emacs - I mentioned that in the context of = telling Uday that that feature exists and he can use it with La Carte. But what did you reply to my saying that? Here it is: > Yes and we were also discussing adding this to GNU/Linux but it has > not happened yet. >=20 > A problem is of course that Emacs uses the Alt key by default as Emacs > META key. (I have a patch for this for w32 as I have said before many > times). >=20 > There are some bugs in menuacc.el (it depends on tmm), but it works > reasonably well. I have postponed further development on it until it > is included in Emacs. Do you see? You said that menuacc.el is not fully baked and you have = stopped developing it. You said you will finish it only after it is included in = Emacs. And you suggested that your feature should have been added to GNU/Linux = (not Emacs) but someone dropped the ball. And you brought in another topic: use of ALT as Meta by Emacs. You = said, in effect, that your menu-accelerator feature depends on Emacs not using = the ALT key as Meta by default. _BY DEFAULT_ no less. I hope you see the problem I'm trying to point out. You say that you = have a solution, but that you won't finish it until it is merged into Emacs, = and to do that Emacs has to give up its use of Alt as Meta by default. Is it any = wonder that things are not clear and the feature has not been adopted as an = option? I might be completely wet, but my guess is that your changes are not = clear to those who could judge them (which does not include me, certainly), and = they are not convinced of how these optional features could be offered. You = "have a patch for this for w32", but no one seems to see the patch, or perhaps = they have seen it but do not understand it. Clear that up and I'm convinced we could progress. If you have a simple solution, then I'll bet we can get the options you guys want into Emacs = (as options). But if there is no such real communication about the changes to be made (implementation), then no progress will be made. You will remain = convinced that no one wants the features you have to offer, and others will remain = convinced that there was no reasonable and completed implementation of the feature = as optional behavior. Remember that you know your implementation better than others do. If = you do not master it and cannot communicate it then others will naturally lose = interest. My friendly advice is to look again at the problem, finish your solution = (if unfinished), and send a complete, clear solution to the list for = consideration. But it needs to offer the feature in an optional way, not = hard-coded/built-in or difficult to bypass. Above all, the changes need to be clear. I really think that is the problem behind the resistance you see about = this. But yes, I could be wrong.