Re: Gitlab Migration

Re: Gitlab Migration

[Simon Pugnet]

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Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> > We have previously discussed extending the concept of a "theme", which
>> > is currently basically just visual.  I think the way forward here is to
>> > allow people to create opinionated views on how Emacs should work (from
>> > keystrokes on up to basically...  anything), and include these in Emacs.
>> >
>> > New users, when starting Emacs, would then be able to choose between,
>> > say, five of these mega-themes on the start-up screen by just clicking
>> > them.
>>
>> Sure, SGTM.  I hope such themes will be developed and added to Emacs.
>> That's one way of having several opt-in changes in behavior that can
>> be turned on and off with a single command.
>
> I agree.  I have proposed to name such themes "profiles" in the past, see e.g.:
>
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg02032.html

Hi all,

I'm not sure if this is of interest but I just thought I'd throw this
into the discussion:
https://blog.polaris64.net/post/could-emacs-have-a-set-up-wizard/.

I thought about a "wizard" which would help newcomers to choose from a
set of profiles in a simple manner, and this blog post details a little
proof-of-concept I came up with. The idea was that it would keep out of
the way as much as possible so that existing users could easily ignore
it or disable the entry on the splash screen if necessary, however it
would still be prominent enough for newcomers to see it.

Best regards,
Simon

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Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Stefan Kangas]

[I changed the subject.]

Simon Pugnet <simon@polaris64.net> writes:

> I'm not sure if this is of interest but I just thought I'd throw this
> into the discussion:
> https://blog.polaris64.net/post/could-emacs-have-a-set-up-wizard/.

Thanks.  Unfortunately, the repository you link in the above blog post
now gives 404.  Could you provide a working link?

> I thought about a "wizard" which would help newcomers to choose from a
> set of profiles in a simple manner, and this blog post details a little
> proof-of-concept I came up with. The idea was that it would keep out of
> the way as much as possible so that existing users could easily ignore
> it or disable the entry on the splash screen if necessary, however it
> would still be prominent enough for newcomers to see it.

This is orthogonal to the discussion about profiles, but I agree that
it's a good idea.

There is a discussion about it here, and perhaps you can find more in
the archives:

    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00601.html

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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> [I changed the subject.]
Thanks, yes I was wondering if I should do that!

>> I'm not sure if this is of interest but I just thought I'd throw this
>> into the discussion:
>> https://blog.polaris64.net/post/could-emacs-have-a-set-up-wizard/.
>
> Thanks.  Unfortunately, the repository you link in the above blog post
> now gives 404.  Could you provide a working link?
That's strange, it works fine for me. Here's the link just in case
there's an issue with my blog: https://github.com/polaris64/emacs_wizard

Let me know if you still have issues and I'll look into it.

>> I thought about a "wizard" which would help newcomers to choose from a
>> set of profiles in a simple manner, and this blog post details a little
>> proof-of-concept I came up with. The idea was that it would keep out of
>> the way as much as possible so that existing users could easily ignore
>> it or disable the entry on the splash screen if necessary, however it
>> would still be prominent enough for newcomers to see it.
>
> This is orthogonal to the discussion about profiles, but I agree that
> it's a good idea.
>
> There is a discussion about it here, and perhaps you can find more in
> the archives: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00601.html
Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to read the thread.

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Joost Kremers]

On Fri, Sep 03 2021, Simon Pugnet wrote:
>> Thanks.  Unfortunately, the repository you link in the above blog post
>> now gives 404.  Could you provide a working link?
> That's strange, it works fine for me. Here's the link just in case
> there's an issue with my blog: https://github.com/polaris64/emacs_wizard

Seems like a bug in Firefox... The href attribute of that link has the value
"https://github.com/polaris64/emacs%5Fwizard", i.e., with `%5F` instead of the
underscore. For some reason, Firefox's doesn't handle that correctly. In
Chromium it works OK.

>> This is orthogonal to the discussion about profiles, but I agree that
>> it's a good idea.

I also think it's a good idea, but I don't think it's entirely orthogonal to the
idea of profiles. I don't really see how profiles would make it easier for new
users to start using Emacs. A wizard, on the other hand, seems to me to be much
better suited for that purpose. (If done right, of course.)

I suspect profiles will end up adding an additional layer to the configuration.
Put too many options into a profile and they'll just make Emacs' configuration
more opaque, not more transparent. A new user won't have the faintest idea what
choosing a certain profile entails and will either just go with the default or
choose whatever is commonly suggested on the web.

A wizard, on the other hand, presents a new user with a couple of choices, each
of which can be explained on the spot and the necessary change to the init file
made visible. Add a comment to each change with the same explanation that
appears in the wizard and the new user can easily see how to undo the change if
they end up not liking it.

The wizard could have several screens, each with related questions. (A screen
about appearance comes to mind, for example: which font to use, light or dark
colour scheme, etc.)

I don't think there's a real need for an `inhibit-wizard` option, BTW. The
information on the startup screen is mainly intended for new users anyway, so I
don't see a reason why this particular link would have to be singled out.
Experienced users can disable the entire startup screen if they like, but if
they don't they probably won't mind that there is a link to the wizard.

In fact, I would even suggest having the wizard run automatically if no init
file is found (with a button to quit the wizard, of course).


-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Jim Porter]

On 9/3/2021 12:35 PM, Joost Kremers wrote:
> I also think it's a good idea, but I don't think it's entirely orthogonal to the
> idea of profiles. I don't really see how profiles would make it easier for new
> users to start using Emacs. A wizard, on the other hand, seems to me to be much
> better suited for that purpose. (If done right, of course.)

I agree. While profiles improve upon the current state of affairs in 
some ways, a wizard would (theoretically) make it easier for a user to 
set up a starting configuration that makes sense for them. Rather than 
picking between one of a handful of profiles, the user could 
mix-and-match as needed. Done well, it could even give users a glimpse 
into how to hand-edit their .emacs when they're ready to start 
more-elaborate customization.

Furthermore, a wizard could be useful for upgrading Emacs. Whether a new 
behavior is opt-in or opt-out, there are bound to be some that are so 
significant that it makes sense to notify the user. However, this would 
need some careful thought about how to be both 1) non-annoying and 2) 
maintainable. Making it much harder to add a significant new feature 
would be a bad move.

> In fact, I would even suggest having the wizard run automatically if no init
> file is found (with a button to quit the wizard, of course).

Also agreed (with the caveat that `emacs -Q' shouldn't start the 
wizard). In my experience, Emacs does a great job of guiding the 
moderately-experienced user, but there's an awful lot to get used to a 
brand-new user. Having something that helps get past the first hurdle of 
setting up the basics would go a long way, I think.

In fact, I bounced off Emacs the first couple times I tried it, and 
might not have picked it up at all if it hadn't been the only option I 
had for a time (other than vim, which I had an even harder time getting 
started with). Surely there are plenty of people out there who bounced 
off and never returned.

- Jim

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Stefan Kangas]

Joost Kremers <joostkremers@fastmail.fm> writes:

> I suspect profiles will end up adding an additional layer to the configuration.
> Put too many options into a profile and they'll just make Emacs' configuration
> more opaque, not more transparent. A new user won't have the faintest idea what
> choosing a certain profile entails and will either just go with the default or
> choose whatever is commonly suggested on the web.

Choosing the default sounds to me like the experience we should be aiming for.

Choosing whatever is commonly suggested on the web is fine, but not my
first hand choice.

My thinking is that a wizard should be optional, but also feel like a
natural next step for a beginning user.

> A wizard, on the other hand, presents a new user with a couple of choices, each
> of which can be explained on the spot and the necessary change to the init file
> made visible. Add a comment to each change with the same explanation that
> appears in the wizard and the new user can easily see how to undo the change if
> they end up not liking it.

If we could do it well, that sounds like it could be a good idea.
Maybe we could let the user choose such a mode of operation
optionally, while hiding the nitty-gritty details by default.

> In fact, I would even suggest having the wizard run automatically if no init
> file is found (with a button to quit the wizard, of course).

Well, maybe.  If the default user experience is already good enough,
there would be less need for running a wizard.

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Daniel Martín]

Jim Porter <jporterbugs@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Furthermore, a wizard could be useful for upgrading Emacs. Whether a
> new behavior is opt-in or opt-out, there are bound to be some that are
> so significant that it makes sense to notify the user. However, this
> would need some careful thought about how to be both 1) non-annoying
> and 2) maintainable. Making it much harder to add a significant new
> feature would be a bad move.

There's already a command in Emacs for that: M-x customize-changed first
asks for a version of Emacs (defaults to the previous one) and then
shows you every customization group, user option or face that is new or
its default has changed.  So I think the wizard could reuse this command
or simply advertise it.

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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Daniel Martín <mardani29@yahoo.es> writes:

> Jim Porter <jporterbugs@gmail.com> writes:
>
> There's already a command in Emacs for that: M-x customize-changed first
> asks for a version of Emacs (defaults to the previous one) and then
> shows you every customization group, user option or face that is new or
> its default has changed.  So I think the wizard could reuse this command
> or simply advertise it.

Thanks, I didn't know that existed, that's very useful.

I think this could definitely be useful in the wizard. The wizard could
store the current Emacs version used to generate the configuration, then
use that stored value as a base for this command in order to show all
new options that a user can now cutomise. The wizard could also compare
the current Emacs version to this stored version and display a button
(with large, friendly letters of course) to trigger this command.

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

>> A wizard, on the other hand, presents a new user with a couple of choices, each
>> of which can be explained on the spot and the necessary change to the init file
>> made visible. Add a comment to each change with the same explanation that
>> appears in the wizard and the new user can easily see how to undo the change if
>> they end up not liking it.
>
> If we could do it well, that sounds like it could be a good idea.
> Maybe we could let the user choose such a mode of operation
> optionally, while hiding the nitty-gritty details by default.

I think it's important to expose the user to the nitty-gritty to some
extent. I envisage the wizard as being a first step into learning Emacs,
so while it hides the details of how it generates a configuration based
on the user's choices it will show the generated code in the end. It
could display the init.el buffer after the wizard is complete and then
show exactly where this file is saved.

As I think was mentioned in this thread earlier too, adding helpful
comments above each generated section of configuration would be very
important. The goal I think would be to encourage users to fiddle and
experiment, but also to allow them to get started right away without
having to understand things first.

Give someone a configuration and they'll be enlightened for a month,
teach them how to build their own configuration and they'll be
enlightened for life :)

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Daniel Fleischer]

Simon Pugnet <simon@polaris64.net> writes:

> I think it's important to expose the user to the nitty-gritty to some
> extent. I envisage the wizard as being a first step into learning Emacs,
> so while it hides the details of how it generates a configuration based
> on the user's choices it will show the generated code in the end. It
> could display the init.el buffer after the wizard is complete and then
> show exactly where this file is saved.
> ...
> Give someone a configuration and they'll be enlightened for a month,
> teach them how to build their own configuration and they'll be
> enlightened for life :)

My opinion is that we shouldn't expect an input from the user; the user
is an Emacs-beginner and she activates the "easy-start/contemporary"
profile and that's it.  Our goal should be (IMO) to have the user use
Emacs for a day, and then a week and then a month.

We're too much inside the Emacs paradigm so we want to introduce
customization into the first interaction of any beginner user but I
think it's not the right way of lowering the bar for new users who
choose to use these profiles.

Of course the profile will be documented and hopefully the user will
learn the meaning of the decisions made in the profile.
-- 

Daniel Fleischer

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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Daniel Fleischer <danflscr@gmail.com> writes:

> My opinion is that we shouldn't expect an input from the user; the user
> is an Emacs-beginner and she activates the "easy-start/contemporary"
> profile and that's it.  Our goal should be (IMO) to have the user use
> Emacs for a day, and then a week and then a month.
>
> We're too much inside the Emacs paradigm so we want to introduce
> customization into the first interaction of any beginner user but I
> think it's not the right way of lowering the bar for new users who
> choose to use these profiles.

Yes that's true, sometimes it can be easy to forget what it's like to be
an absolute beginner.

> Of course the profile will be documented and hopefully the user will
> learn the meaning of the decisions made in the profile.

I think it's good to show the user what configuration is generated and
to tell them where it's saved, but it should be easy for the to click
"OK" on that and then just get on with using Emacs and not having to
think about configuration again. That way those who just want to use
Emacs will be able to do so and those who are more interested in what
else it can do will have a starting point for further customisation.

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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Daniel Fleischer <danflscr@gmail.com> writes:

> My opinion is that we shouldn't expect an input from the user; the user
> is an Emacs-beginner and she activates the "easy-start/contemporary"
> profile and that's it.  Our goal should be (IMO) to have the user use
> Emacs for a day, and then a week and then a month.
>
> We're too much inside the Emacs paradigm so we want to introduce
> customization into the first interaction of any beginner user but I
> think it's not the right way of lowering the bar for new users who
> choose to use these profiles.

Yes that's true, sometimes it can be easy to forget what it's like to be
an absolute beginner.

> Of course the profile will be documented and hopefully the user will
> learn the meaning of the decisions made in the profile.

I think it's good to show the user what configuration is generated and
to tell them where it's saved, but it should be easy for the to click
"OK" on that and then just get on with using Emacs and not having to
think about configuration again. That way those who just want to use
Emacs will be able to do so and those who are more interested in what
else it can do will have a starting point for further customisation.

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Yuan Fu]

> 
> There is a discussion about it here, and perhaps you can find more in
> the archives:
> 
>    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00601.html
> 

Here is the link to the demo video: https://youtu.be/0qMskTAR2aw

Unfortunately that proof-of-concept didn’t go anywhere AFAIK.

Yuan

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Simon Pugnet]

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Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:

>> 
>> There is a discussion about it here, and perhaps you can find more in
>> the archives:
>> 
>>    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00601.html
>> 
>
> Here is the link to the demo video: https://youtu.be/0qMskTAR2aw

Your PoC looks good to me, I like the fact that users can see the
effects of their choices in real time.

> Unfortunately that proof-of-concept didn’t go anywhere AFAIK.

Hopefully we can move out of the PoC stage soon. It sounds like this
would work best as a combined effort. I might continue working on mine
soon if I get some free time, but in the meantime please feel free to
take things from it if they're of any use! :)

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Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

How about if people start developing proposed Emacs set-up wizards?

I don't think they necessarily require any particular change in Emacs.
So if you write one that works, it would work for anyone, and people
could give useful comments and suggestions.  Eventually we might
see one that would be worth installing.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Could Emacs Have a Set-up Wizard?

[Arthur Miller]

Yuan Fu <casouri@gmail.com> writes:

>> 
>> There is a discussion about it here, and perhaps you can find more in
>> the archives:
>> 
>>    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00601.html
>> 
>
> Here is the link to the demo video: https://youtu.be/0qMskTAR2aw
>
> Unfortunately that proof-of-concept didn’t go anywhere AFAIK.
>
Never saw it before, but that looks nice to me. What is most important it gies
immidate feedback, or waht people who use "modern eidtors" call live preview.

Why don't you develop it more and suggest for inclusion?