Re: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

Re: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

[cyberkm]

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Thank you, but unforunatly, it is not a solution -
Hebrew is not simple right to left
its a BI-Directional. Then text is written from rtl the number ltr, what
about the punctuation signs, spaces and etc..
the bi-di code is very complex

On Nov 4, 2008 5:05am, "BT Raven" <nihil@nihilo.net> wrote:
> BT Raven wrote:
>
>
> BT Raven wrote:
>
>
> Pavel wrote:
>
>
> Hi everybody, i would like to know if the combination i mentioned in the
>
> subject is possible.
>
> I would like to write Hebrew latex documents in emacs, but unfortunately  
the
>
> Hebrew is reversed.
>
> Thanx
>
>
>
>
>
>
> As a kludge you could type everything left to right and then apply this  
function to the whole buffer:
>
>
>
> (defun reverse-bstring (str)
>
> (apply #'string (nreverse (string-to-list (buffer-string))))
>
>
>
> There is something perverse about it since it doesn't seem to need to be  
passed a string but, anyway, evaluating it in *Scratch* produces this:
>
>
>
> "
>
> ))))gnirts-reffub( tsil-ot-gnirts( esrevern( gnirts'# ylppa(
>
> )rts( gnirtsb-esrever nufed(
>
>
>
> ..reffub nwo s'elif taht ni txet eht retne neht ;;
>
> ,fC xC htiw elif taht tisiv ,elif a etaerc ot tnaw uoy fI ;;
>
> ..noitaulave psiL rof dna ,evas ot tnaw t'nod uoy seton rof si reffub  
sihT ;;"
>
>
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
> Of course you want to do this line by line, not to the whole buffer,  
since in Hebrew and Arabic you start at the back of the book but not at the  
bottom of the page. O well, back to the drawing board.
>
>
>
>
> You could then demarcate the above text as a region and then run Mx  
reverse-region on it. It's still a kludge but it might work on multi-byte  
buffers.
>

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RE: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

[Bourgneuf Francois]

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Just a precision, in arabic and hebrew both text and numbers are written right to left.
In western languages text is written left to right and numbers right to left.
You can't tell the value of the left digit of a number if you havent read how many digit are at his right.
We solve additions from the right to the left.
 
Bour9
 


  _____  

	De : help-gnu-emacs-bounces+francois.bourgneuf=groupe-mma.fr@gnu.org [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+francois.bourgneuf=groupe-mma.fr@gnu.org] De la part de cyberkm@gmail.com
	Envoyé : mardi 4 novembre 2008 12:45
	À : help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
	Objet : Re: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi
	
	
	Thank you, but unforunatly, it is not a solution -
	Hebrew is not simple right to left
	its a BI-Directional. Then text is written from rtl the number ltr, what
	about the punctuation signs, spaces and etc..
	the bi-di code is very complex
	
	On Nov 4, 2008 5:05am, "B. T. Raven" <nihil@nihilo.net> wrote:
	> B. T. Raven wrote:
	> 
	> 
	> B. T. Raven wrote:
	> 
	> 
	> Pavel wrote:
	> 
	> 
	> Hi everybody, i would like to know if the combination i mentioned in the
	> 
	> subject is possible.
	> 
	> I would like to write Hebrew latex documents in emacs, but unfortunately the
	> 
	> Hebrew is reversed.
	> 
	> Thanx
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> As a kludge you could type everything left to right and then apply this function to the whole buffer:
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> (defun reverse-bstring (str)
	> 
	>  (apply #'string (nreverse (string-to-list (buffer-string))))
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> There is something perverse about it since it doesn't seem to need to be passed a string but, anyway, evaluating it in *Scratch* produces this:
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> "
	> 
	> ))))gnirts-reffub( tsil-ot-gnirts( esrevern( gnirts'# ylppa(
	> 
	> )rts( gnirtsb-esrever nufed(
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> ..reffub nwo s'elif taht ni txet eht retne neht ;;
	> 
	> ,f-C x-C htiw elif taht tisiv ,elif a etaerc ot tnaw uoy fI ;;
	> 
	> ..noitaulave psiL rof dna ,evas ot tnaw t'nod uoy seton rof si reffub sihT ;;"
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> Ed
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> Of course you want to do this line by line, not to the whole buffer, since in Hebrew and Arabic you start at the back of the book but not at the bottom of the page. O well, back to the drawing board.
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> You could then demarcate the above text as a region and then run M-x reverse-region on it. It's still a kludge but it might work on multi-byte buffers.
	>


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Re: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

[Jonathan Groll]

On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 02:06:09PM +0100, Bourgneuf Francois wrote:
>Just a precision, in arabic and hebrew both text and numbers are written right to left.
>In western languages text is written left to right and numbers right to left.
>You can't tell the value of the left digit of a number if you havent read how many digit are at his right.
>We solve additions from the right to the left.
> 

In all the Hebrew I've seen numbers were left to right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_punctuation#Math

Regards,
Jonathan

RE: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

[Bourgneuf Francois]

I just wanted to point that "english numbers" (i.e. arabic) numbers are in fact right to left.
We're used to use them so we think they are written left to right but it's wrong. Even though you don't
realize it, you read numbers from the right to the left.

I disagree with what's written in the Wikipedia article.
For example, in the number 1.234 how can you tell 1 represents one thousand ? Because there are
three digits on the right. You have to read the right part of the number first.

Other example, which of these calculations is the easiest to solve :

  12345
+23

Or

 12345
+     23

Regards
Bour9  

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : 
> help-gnu-emacs-bounces+francois.bourgneuf=groupe-mma.fr@gnu.or
> g 
> [mailto:help-gnu-emacs-bounces+francois.bourgneuf=groupe-mma.f
> r@gnu.org] De la part de Jonathan Groll
> Envoyé : mardi 4 novembre 2008 15:56
> À : help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Objet : Re: Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi
> 
> On Tue, Nov 04, 2008 at 02:06:09PM +0100, Bourgneuf Francois wrote:
> >Just a precision, in arabic and hebrew both text and numbers 
> are written right to left.
> >In western languages text is written left to right and 
> numbers right to left.
> >You can't tell the value of the left digit of a number if 
> you havent read how many digit are at his right.
> >We solve additions from the right to the left.
> > 
> 
> In all the Hebrew I've seen numbers were left to right:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_punctuation#Math
> 
> Regards,
> Jonathan
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: emacs + unicode + hebrew + bidi

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:15:04 +0100
> From: "Bourgneuf Francois" <francois.bourgneuf@groupe-mma.fr>
> 
> I just wanted to point that "english numbers" (i.e. arabic) numbers
> are in fact right to left.  We're used to use them so we think they
> are written left to right but it's wrong. Even though you don't
> realize it, you read numbers from the right to the left.

You are simply distorting the widely accepted meaning of left-to-right
text and right-to-left text.  Please don't, this confuses even more an
issue that is already confusing.

The point here is _not_ how we decide whether a digit 1 means one,
ten, or one hundred.  The point is that in a text such as

  here are few digits: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

the digit 1 is read before the digit 2, 2 before 3, etc.

In bidirectional languages such as Hebrew, a similar utterance would
be displayed like this:

                              1, 2, 3, 4, 5 :STIGID WEF A ERA EREH

That is, the digits are still written _and_ read left-to-right, unlike
the text that precedes them, which is read right-to-left.

> I disagree with what's written in the Wikipedia article.

That is your prerogative, but please try not to confuse others.