From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Bikeshedding go! Why is unbound? Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 14:47:28 -0800 Message-ID: <97AE4C97E1674829AC290276E7A205E4@us.oracle.com> References: <87sjx7z7w4.fsf@telefonica.net> <83pqsbmf6j.fsf@gnu.org> <87k4ijz07h.fsf@telefonica.net> <2460D97DEA4047B3B9DF92C4A80981EF@us.oracle.com> <57BF13882D6E494286547F293FE9D03B@us.oracle.com> <87lj2pfo81.fsf@wanadoo.es> <12B9F2D504D54D759E43154D6084E77D@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1294958986 31838 80.91.229.12 (13 Jan 2011 22:49:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:49:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'=D3scar_Fuentes'?= , 'Stuart Hacking' , emacs-devel@gnu.org, 'Stefan Monnier' , 'Deniz Dogan' To: "'Lennart Borgman'" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 13 23:49:40 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1PdVzA-0006l6-LC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:49:40 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49714 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PdVzA-0003ad-5e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:49:40 -0500 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=45434 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PdVz4-0003YX-RK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:49:35 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PdVz3-0000pm-HP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:49:34 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:35594) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PdVz3-0000pZ-BB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:49:33 -0500 Original-Received: from rcsinet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id p0DMnPnl010167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:49:26 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by rcsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id p0DKLBas007629; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:49:23 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt006.oracle.com by acsmt355.oracle.com with ESMTP id 958558971294958846; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 14:47:26 -0800 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/130.35.178.194) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Thu, 13 Jan 2011 14:47:26 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcuzcZQ+tn5r7tWmR2mWMB98jDKxQgAAFDwQ In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5994 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:134501 Archived-At: > > Just what is the real rationale behind this move? =A0Let's be=20 > > clear, please. >=20 > Would it be enough to say that the in the system menu there=20 > is an entry "Close Alt+F4" but it does not work now because > Emacs breaks it? Is it enough for you? Not for me. Emacs "breaks" lots of MS Windows = keys, and I generally don't lose much sleep over it (Zzzzzzzzzz). What if a different window mgr does not use that key for `Close'? Do we = not make it the Emacs default for that platform? Do we instead bind that = platform's `Close' key by default there? Do we limit this exercise to just the keys that _all_ window mgrs have = in common? Or do we try to adapt Emacs to each window mgr separately, for = each of its own keys? You've said that for you the criterion is simply that MS Windows has = this `Close Alt-F4' item in a system menu. So that's neither exactly the (a) nor = the (b) that I mentioned: neither for user convenience nor because we cannot do otherwise. Fair enough, but I wonder if presence-in-a-system-menu is the consensus rationale. It's good to know why we're doing this. > What do you believe a new user thinks when (s)he sees this? How is this different from the umpteen other window-mgr keys? Shall we = add them all as Emacs defaults? If not, what do you believe a new user will = think when s?he tries them? > And regarding your effort to try to stop this: In the long run I > believe we must change the key bindings. Or die. Or die? Lennart, please. But yes, in the long run, we will die. Even if we change the key bindings, alas.