From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: ASCII-only startup message? Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 02:13:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <95915261-bff5-4a96-8d81-7d7acc426c92@default> References: <567ECD8C.1070408@cs.ucla.edu> <8360zlhy7x.fsf@gnu.org> <567EE043.9020109@cs.ucla.edu> <83y4chgh5q.fsf@gnu.org> <567EED47.1090700@cs.ucla.edu> <83si2pgci8.fsf@gnu.org> <567F22B1.9040702@cs.ucla.edu> <2dc99848-b6d5-4f53-b22c-66e29d15647c@default> <444c19cb-4687-41c4-8291-481f5b5a42a1@default> <9e93866e-c6a4-42e3-b8b2-70fd6185b25e@default> <7294941d-a7c4-469c-9203-7949b2e34f0b@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451297646 14877 80.91.229.3 (28 Dec 2015 10:14:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:14:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?UGVyIFN0YXJiw6Rjaw==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 28 11:13:55 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aDUoK-0006hP-0C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:13:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44071 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDUoJ-0004Ex-4R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 05:13:51 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43350) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDUo3-0004Ed-OM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 05:13:36 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDUny-0004Tl-Mb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 05:13:35 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:36855) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aDUny-0004Te-FC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 05:13:30 -0500 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id tBSADSYJ010675 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:13:29 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBSADS5x009477 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:13:28 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0002.oracle.com (abhmp0002.oracle.com [141.146.116.8]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBSADSvu011010; Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:13:28 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:197004 Archived-At: > > No one suggested otherwise. The question raised was whether > > a right curly quote mark should be used in *scratch* as > > apostrophe. >=20 > I don't see how "... as apostrophe" is important here, since it > is the same character. By "_as apostrophe_" I mean what I said at the outset: used in one of the apostrophe use cases, which define apostrophe by function, not by appearance. (There was never any question about whether a right quotation mark should be used _as a quotation mark_. The question is only whether it should also be used as apostrophe, in *scratch*.) All of the use cases of an apostrophe are uses _within a word_. 1. Marking the omission of one or more letters of a word (contraction). 2. Marking possessive case (e.g., "Per's pet peeve"). 3. Certain plurals. (There are 6 apostrophe use cases altogether, in the Pullum article: http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2013/03/22/being-an-apostrophe/.) Wikipedia gives the same 3 use cases (and it calls apostrophe a punctuation mark, which some linguists do not). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe Whether considered punctuation or not, AFAICT linguists agree that these in-word use cases are what make an apostrophe an apostrophe - not its appearance. None of these are uses cases for a quotation mark. Quotation marks are used outside words; never within words. This is the point (Wikipedia): The apostrophe looks the same as a closing single quotation mark, although they have different meanings. I would say that the apostrophe _can_ look the same, and it generally does. What is important is that the meaning is not the same - an apostrophe is not a quotation mark, even when they might look the same. This is so regardless of whether Unicode has decided to "prefer" the use of a single character for both meanings (apostrophe, quotation mark). (See also www.umich.edu/~jlawler/IELL-Punctuation.pdf, which lists as separate punctuation marks, "single and double quotation marks =E2=80=98 =E2=80=9C =C2=AB =C2=BB =E2=80=9D =E2=80=99, and the apostr= ophe, or raised comma =E2=80=99 ". They are not the same mark, even when they look identical.) > Then the question is just "Should curly quote marks be used there?" > I can see arguments for or against that, and am not entering that > discussion. I just want to make sure Emacs doesn't create its own > division between apostrophes and right single quotes and displays > texts where those look different. It is perfectly proper, IMO, for an application to display a quotation mark using one glyph and an apostrophe using another glyph, Unicode "preferences" not withstanding. An apostrophe is not a quotation mark, by function, even if Unicode prefers the use of the same character to represent both. And Unicode does not preclude using different chars. And even within the Unicode body there apparently has been and still is disagreement over that stated "preference". (Although there is agreement that U+0027 is not preferred. The disagreement is over other Unicode apostrophe characters, not over ASCII apostrophe.) And Emacs can decide for itself what it needs and wants. Emacs can respect or ignore Unicode "preferred" use of a given character, based on its own needs. And that shows no disrespect for the Unicode standard and no lack of supporting it. An Emacs user is free to use whatever Unicode characters s?he likes wherever s?he likes.